my first keris

Tim Simmons · 27th November 2006, 08:55 PM

Have I been a mug?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...6336&rd=1&rd=1

Alam Shah · 28th November 2006, 03:00 PM

Hmmm, let's see better pictures of the piece when it comes, please.

Judging from the available pictures, looks like a composite keris...
but subject to confirmation from better pictures.

A close-up of the base area of the blade and bigger full-length of the blade, would help.

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2006, 05:00 PM

Thank you. I think you all know this is a stab in the dark for me. It is almost too good a buy to be true. I have done better in the past, you never know. I will keep my fingers crossed and post better pictures when it arrives some time next week. Thanks for any comments as I know little about these really. Is the pamor "hair stands on end" or am I running before I can walk

.

Please excuse my ignorance but how and what aspects constitute a composite piece?

Rick · 28th November 2006, 05:30 PM

For instance a blade from one Island or area dressed in the accoutrements of another area's style .

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2006, 05:40 PM

Thanks Rick. I guess to a purest that is a bit crap. Where does the blade come from? do bits get traded and mixed in use as people are not always in one place? The big question- IS IT CRAP ? go on I can take it, you never stop cocking up in this game.

Rick · 28th November 2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thanks Rick. I guess to a purest that is a bit crap.

Not neccesarily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Where does the blade come from? do bits get traded and mixed in use as people are not always in one place? The big question- IS IT CRAP ? go on I can take it, you never stop cocking up in this game.

I'd like to see pictures when it arrives; don't think you're a mug.

Here's a few real cockups for you.
Nightmares from my past.........

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2006, 06:52 PM

Eek, they really make hair standing on end

. Wait untill I have it.

I suppose seeing how well it all fits together is the key as to whether it is a cobbled up composite or genuinely made form bits that were available at the time. As in is the scabbard made for this blade?

Rick · 28th November 2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I suppose seeing how well it all fits together is the key as to whether it is a cobbled up composite or genuinely made form bits that were available at the time. As in is the scabbard made for this blade?

Wrongkos can be refitted to house a different blade than the original one.

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2006, 07:33 PM

Yes they could indeed. Quite tricky. I have my fingers crossed that it is a decent piece, obviously I am not expecting a miracle. A bargin would be nice

.

William.m · 28th November 2006, 11:05 PM

Hi Tim, looks like a nice piece, I almost put in a bid but lucky for you I forgot! haha

If your going up north anytime soon there is an excellent antique shop in york that has quite a few keris for sale. I picked up one when I was visiting last month. Can't remember what the shop was called but its in the shambles district.

Will

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 10:55 AM

I do not know about composite but I think it sucks! The sellers use of "used" is just a euphemism for brand spanking new

. I paid less for the all metal lance and the Naga dao both wonderful pieces, I said my luck would run out. It seems to rely on wieght rather than any really skilled tempering of the blade. Used is a very meaningless term, something to remember. It was probably made for tourists. pictures of the crap to follow

Alam Shah · 1st December 2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not know about composite but I think it sucks!

Hi Tim, the small eBay pictures were misleading.

I was expecting to see two properly formed grooves (sogokan depan and sogokan belakang) at the bottom centre of the blade, not two lines of what seems to be formed by a grinder and looked unfinished.

The nice part of this ensemble is, the hilt ring (pendokok). A Malay Straits model. Although it looks new, it's well-formed.

Rick · 1st December 2006, 02:47 PM

Tim, is this experience going to sour you on keris?

This piece is much better than the first K.L.O. I purchased.

Be of good cheer. <pats Tim on the back>

Rick

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 04:26 PM

No Rick, I am on my guard now. The seller failed to mention the rare "ha ha knobend" pamor

.

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 07:13 PM

I am not trying to pull this back from the abyss but this side of the blade shows some signs of forging and folding so I am not sure it has been wholly ground to shape. It is still brand new though.

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 08:33 PM

I just want to ask now that this is obviously a brand new piece. The quallity is a matter of taste. Does it still represent a composite piece? What would be the point especially if sold to tourists. There are no composite pieces in the collecting of African work, it is said to have neighbouring influences. Composite to me seems to have a collectors tone of disapproval. Do I need to study more?

David · 1st December 2006, 09:30 PM

Tim, i don't believe that composite pieces are ALWAYS to be disapproved of. Sometimes a seller has a few various parts lying around that he slaps together for sale.

Sometimes a keris from one region may end up in the dress of anothet for completely legitimate cultural reasons. If one has moved form, say Jawa, to Bali, they might feel the need to dress their keris in accordance with local custom. Some keris make their way to different islands and trade items and are then dressed locally.
i am not so sure that your piece is composite. The blade is certainly not a well made piece, but it is a forged piece, so i would call it a keris. And Alam Shah is correct to point out that it has a nice pendokok and the sheath seems to be a nice wood. All in all i wouldn't go so far as to say you were mugged. You probably didn't pay too much more that the market value.

drdavid · 1st December 2006, 09:53 PM

Hi Tim, don't worry about this one, there is a significant amount of rubbish sold off as keris, some new made some just old rubbish. Ebay does not seem to be a good place for the novice keris collector, it takes a long while and a lot of knowledge (which I dont have) to differentiate the good from the bad and even longer to split the good from the very good. Keris really are fascinating but if you want a good experience from the start I think you might be best served by finding a reputable dealer rather than relying on the luck of ebay (there was an interesting thread a while ago about 'keris like objects'). Anyway dont give up, like you say we have all bought some absolute duds (

shudders convulsively at the thought of one particularly poor purchase). Maybe we should have a thread on the main board about "trash I have paid for".
cheers
David

A. G. Maisey · 1st December 2006, 10:07 PM

Tim, I look at keris in a somewhat different way to the way in which the other people who contribute to this Forum look at them.

That "somewhat different way" means that I apply different standards to different keris.

What I can see in the pics you have provided is a village quality blade, a fairly decent old wrongko, a fair average quality handle, and a pendongkok that I believe will test as silver.

I can also see the price you paid.

In my opinion you recieved very good value for what you paid.

It is a fact of life that in this world we pretty much get what we pay for. High quality, old is going to cost good money, no matter where it comes from, including ebay. Yes, we all know of the exceptions to this, but those exceptions , to my knowledge, have been achieved by very, very knowledgeable people who are prepared to gamble on something that looks like it might be good, and then get rid of it if it is not.

Sleep easy Tim. You did OK.

David · 1st December 2006, 11:01 PM

Actually Tim, after checking the pound to dollar conversion rates i think you did do OK. I guess i was thinking the pound was worth a bit more. Alan also makes a good point that the pendokok may well be silver.

BluErf · 2nd December 2006, 02:34 AM

Hi Tim,

Though I would admit this keris is not a fine keris, I do not think it is made for the tourist. I see signs of san-mai construction, and I think it may not be 'spanking new'. I also think that this is a Sulawesi Bugis keris with every part made for the keris blade, judging from the very good fit and proportions. The sheath, pendoko and hilt styles are all consistent with Sulawesi archetype. Sulawesi kerises may be a rough lot, mostly, but through the roughness, a certain Bugis macho-ness emerges. It takes a slightly different perspective to appreciate it, but you may eventually like it.

"I am Bugis; I am tough. I ain't pretty. You got a problem with that?"

Anyway, if you don't want the keris, get in touch with Adni. I'm sure he can help find a new owner for the keris.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 10:59 AM

Thank you gentlemen for information on this fascinating first step. It is not quite the same world as African weapons where there is little opportunity for the more creative dealer

I will now have one eye looking into the world of the keris, this experience is going to help me get that good old one. Cheap with my name on it. This keris might be simple but it gave me quite a nip while I was fiddling with the blade.

Henk · 2nd December 2006, 03:03 PM

Oooohhh shit......He's bitten

Rick · 2nd December 2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Oooohhh shit......He's bitten

Ahhhh, memories !

I remember my first bite; it was a bugis blade with an attitude.

David · 2nd December 2006, 04:07 PM

Yeah, i'm not sure you have been truly initiated until some fiesty keris has taken a nip at ya.

Rick · 2nd December 2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yeah, i'm not sure you have been truly initiated until some fiesty keris has taken a nip at ya.

Then the inevitable result; the Addict's hovel...

David · 3rd December 2006, 03:42 PM

hhhmmmm....if i am not mistaken there appears to be room for a couple of more on that back rack...

Tim Simmons · 31st May 2007, 08:34 PM

I got the thingy round the handle tested today and it is silver. Perhaps this is just a little older than say ten years. So I think did not do too bad with this one. I did a lot worse when I imagined an old one with all that spookyness would be a better buy.

Lew · 31st May 2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Then the inevitable result; the Addict's hovel...

Rick

We understand but you should really clear out some of those keris so you will have room to lay down some where inside your home and stop living in that tent in your backyard

Lew

Rick · 31st May 2007, 11:13 PM

LOL !!

27th November 2006, 08:55 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	my first keris Have I been a mug? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...6336&rd=1&rd=1

28th November 2006, 05:00 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thank you. I think you all know this is a stab in the dark for me. It is almost too good a buy to be true. I have done better in the past, you never know. I will keep my fingers crossed and post better pictures when it arrives some time next week. Thanks for any comments as I know little about these really. Is the pamor "hair stands on end" or am I running before I can walk . Please excuse my ignorance but how and what aspects constitute a composite piece? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 28th November 2006 at 05:23 PM.

28th November 2006, 05:30 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Composite For instance a blade from one Island or area dressed in the accoutrements of another area's style .

1st December 2006, 10:55 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	It is here, what a sucker! I do not know about composite but I think it sucks! The sellers use of "used" is just a euphemism for brand spanking new . I paid less for the all metal lance and the Naga dao both wonderful pieces, I said my luck would run out. It seems to rely on wieght rather than any really skilled tempering of the blade. Used is a very meaningless term, something to remember. It was probably made for tourists. pictures of the crap to follow Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st December 2006 at 11:18 AM.

31st May 2007, 11:13 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The Tent's Full Too !! LOL !!

28th November 2006, 03:00 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hmmm, let's see better pictures of the piece when it comes, please. Judging from the available pictures, looks like a composite keris... but subject to confirmation from better pictures. A close-up of the base area of the blade and bigger full-length of the blade, would help.

28th November 2006, 05:40 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thanks Rick. I guess to a purest that is a bit crap. Where does the blade come from? do bits get traded and mixed in use as people are not always in one place? The big question- IS IT CRAP ? go on I can take it, you never stop cocking up in this game.

28th November 2006, 06:52 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Eek, they really make hair standing on end . Wait untill I have it. I suppose seeing how well it all fits together is the key as to whether it is a cobbled up composite or genuinely made form bits that were available at the time. As in is the scabbard made for this blade?

28th November 2006, 07:33 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Yes they could indeed. Quite tricky. I have my fingers crossed that it is a decent piece, obviously I am not expecting a miracle. A bargin would be nice .

28th November 2006, 11:05 PM	#10
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Hi Tim, looks like a nice piece, I almost put in a bid but lucky for you I forgot! haha If your going up north anytime soon there is an excellent antique shop in york that has quite a few keris for sale. I picked up one when I was visiting last month. Can't remember what the shop was called but its in the shambles district. Will

1st December 2006, 02:47 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Tim, is this experience going to sour you on keris? This piece is much better than the first K.L.O. I purchased. Be of good cheer. <pats Tim on the back> Rick

1st December 2006, 04:26 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	No Rick, I am on my guard now. The seller failed to mention the rare "ha ha knobend" pamor .

1st December 2006, 07:13 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am not trying to pull this back from the abyss but this side of the blade shows some signs of forging and folding so I am not sure it has been wholly ground to shape. It is still brand new though.

1st December 2006, 08:33 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I just want to ask now that this is obviously a brand new piece. The quallity is a matter of taste. Does it still represent a composite piece? What would be the point especially if sold to tourists. There are no composite pieces in the collecting of African work, it is said to have neighbouring influences. Composite to me seems to have a collectors tone of disapproval. Do I need to study more?

1st December 2006, 09:30 PM	#17
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Tim, i don't believe that composite pieces are ALWAYS to be disapproved of. Sometimes a seller has a few various parts lying around that he slaps together for sale. Sometimes a keris from one region may end up in the dress of anothet for completely legitimate cultural reasons. If one has moved form, say Jawa, to Bali, they might feel the need to dress their keris in accordance with local custom. Some keris make their way to different islands and trade items and are then dressed locally. i am not so sure that your piece is composite. The blade is certainly not a well made piece, but it is a forged piece, so i would call it a keris. And Alam Shah is correct to point out that it has a nice pendokok and the sheath seems to be a nice wood. All in all i wouldn't go so far as to say you were mugged. You probably didn't pay too much more that the market value.

1st December 2006, 09:53 PM	#18
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 369	Hi Tim, don't worry about this one, there is a significant amount of rubbish sold off as keris, some new made some just old rubbish. Ebay does not seem to be a good place for the novice keris collector, it takes a long while and a lot of knowledge (which I dont have) to differentiate the good from the bad and even longer to split the good from the very good. Keris really are fascinating but if you want a good experience from the start I think you might be best served by finding a reputable dealer rather than relying on the luck of ebay (there was an interesting thread a while ago about 'keris like objects'). Anyway dont give up, like you say we have all bought some absolute duds ( shudders convulsively at the thought of one particularly poor purchase). Maybe we should have a thread on the main board about "trash I have paid for". cheers David

1st December 2006, 10:07 PM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Tim, I look at keris in a somewhat different way to the way in which the other people who contribute to this Forum look at them. That "somewhat different way" means that I apply different standards to different keris. What I can see in the pics you have provided is a village quality blade, a fairly decent old wrongko, a fair average quality handle, and a pendongkok that I believe will test as silver. I can also see the price you paid. In my opinion you recieved very good value for what you paid. It is a fact of life that in this world we pretty much get what we pay for. High quality, old is going to cost good money, no matter where it comes from, including ebay. Yes, we all know of the exceptions to this, but those exceptions , to my knowledge, have been achieved by very, very knowledgeable people who are prepared to gamble on something that looks like it might be good, and then get rid of it if it is not. Sleep easy Tim. You did OK.

1st December 2006, 11:01 PM	#20
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Actually Tim, after checking the pound to dollar conversion rates i think you did do OK. I guess i was thinking the pound was worth a bit more. Alan also makes a good point that the pendokok may well be silver.

2nd December 2006, 02:34 AM	#21
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Tim, Though I would admit this keris is not a fine keris, I do not think it is made for the tourist. I see signs of san-mai construction, and I think it may not be 'spanking new'. I also think that this is a Sulawesi Bugis keris with every part made for the keris blade, judging from the very good fit and proportions. The sheath, pendoko and hilt styles are all consistent with Sulawesi archetype. Sulawesi kerises may be a rough lot, mostly, but through the roughness, a certain Bugis macho-ness emerges. It takes a slightly different perspective to appreciate it, but you may eventually like it. "I am Bugis; I am tough. I ain't pretty. You got a problem with that?" Anyway, if you don't want the keris, get in touch with Adni. I'm sure he can help find a new owner for the keris.

2nd December 2006, 10:59 AM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thank you gentlemen for information on this fascinating first step. It is not quite the same world as African weapons where there is little opportunity for the more creative dealer I will now have one eye looking into the world of the keris, this experience is going to help me get that good old one. Cheap with my name on it. This keris might be simple but it gave me quite a nip while I was fiddling with the blade.

2nd December 2006, 03:03 PM	#23
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Oooohhh shit......He's bitten

2nd December 2006, 04:07 PM	#25
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Yeah, i'm not sure you have been truly initiated until some fiesty keris has taken a nip at ya.

3rd December 2006, 03:42 PM	#27
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	hhhmmmm....if i am not mistaken there appears to be room for a couple of more on that back rack...

31st May 2007, 08:34 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I got the thingy round the handle tested today and it is silver. Perhaps this is just a little older than say ten years. So I think did not do too bad with this one. I did a lot worse when I imagined an old one with all that spookyness would be a better buy.