Dutch - VOC Blade - HELP! needed

Amuk Murugul · 26th April 2008, 10:32 PM

Hullo everybody,

Can anyone help me with info (manufacturer, dimensions, pictures etc.) about VOC blades made around 1602-1606?

Sorry if it is not the right topic for this forum.

Thank you.

fernando · 27th April 2008, 12:24 AM

Pardon my gnorance,
what does VOC mean ?

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2008, 03:45 AM

Hi Fernando,
VOC= Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie.

Good question Amuk. I'm not sure offhand about blades marked that early, the greatest preponderance of VOC blades seem to be from the 18th century, especially around 1760's. It seems that a great deal of the examples of kastane are mounted with these marked VOC blades and in that period. I always tried to find one so marked, but they are pretty much all collected and staying tight!

Can you tell us more of what your interest is? Maybe we might get better idea of where to look for info.

all the best
Jim

Rick · 27th April 2008, 03:55 AM

Don't say it Jim .........

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2008, 06:24 AM

Rick! I burst out laughing on that one!!!!!LOL JUDL!!!
I've been plowing through stuff for hours and once as I gasped, the forbidden thread came up on the google search I had on.
I think that will be forever the thread of all time.

As I regain my composure, I will share with Amuk what I have found

Apparantly little detailed information exists on arms and armor production in the Netherlands, but centers existed in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Tournai in Flanders. It seems that they did import large portion of arms and armor from Italy and Germany.
ref: "Famous Makers and European Centers of Arms and Armor Production", Dirk H. Breiding, Metropolitan Museum of Art, "Timeline of Art History" 2000.

There would have been considerable examples of Spanish and Italian rapier forms c.1600, and for more military use, these were primarily the German imports. These would have been heavy bladed 'Sinclair sabre' types of sabres with shellguards and varying forms of developing basket style hilts, some with heavy straight blades.
In "Blanke Wapens:Nederlandse slag-en steekwapens sinds 1600" J.P.Puype, 1981, some of these are discussed, however since my Dutch is 'nada'

I cant relay much.

As far as the VOC, the firm was officially formed in 1602, the blades on the swords would not have of course had any particular regulation as far as I would imagine. The officers of course would have worn most likely rapiers as noted of Italian or Spanish form, while other ranks or individuals would have used the military swords of the time. I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.

FYI....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!!

Sorry Rick! I just had to 'splain it'.

All the best,
Jim

Amuk Murugul · 27th April 2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!!

....

Jim

Hullo Jim,

I just read your post.
Thank you again.

Yes, I, too, have been initiated into the quest for the enigmatic 'SHAVER COOL'.(ROTFLPIMP!!

))
As I remember, I tried many different approaches. I finally put it in the ' to be investigated in the not-too-soon future'.

I actually inspected different blades with the same marks.
My last try was to see whether it could've been manufactured by SHAVER GOOL (Both being Germanic names, given the shifting borders at the time and Shaver having evolved from Schaeffer).

Best.

Amuk Murugul · 30th April 2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....... I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons.....

Hullo everybody

,

Jim,

I think I have a photo of a VOC sword somewhere in my photo archives. It's from about 1675, marked with VOC, the year and the arms of Amsterdam.
I can't remember where I got the photos from. If there are no copyright issues, I'll look for them and post.

Best.

Amuk Murugul · 27th April 2008, 06:44 AM

Hullo everybody

,

Jim,
Thank you for your reply.
I am doing this for a friend who doesn't speak English very well.
We share an interest in implements used/adopted/adapted by the Sunda.

Some time ago, he was offered a sword. Apparently, it looked a bit like a Klewang. The handle was rather crude, with a D guard and a brass sheet wrapped over the grip. The blade had 1606 VOC marked on both sides.
He declined the offer, but it has been niggling him ever since ("Was it fake?").

My research has found nothing.

However, I remember, some time back, coming across an article (on the Internet and in Dutch) about the tell-tales of Dutch blades and how to spot a fake. As it was not part of my research at the time, I didn't want to be distracted and moved on.
Now I can no longer find the article. (I should've tagged it when I had the chance).

I hope I have answered your question about my interest.

Thank you again.

Henk · 27th April 2008, 10:31 AM

I doubt weapons were marked with the VOC mark in that early period of the VOC.
Most weapons in that period were made in Solingen and assembled in Köln. Also in Luik (Liege) Belgium many weapons were produced.
The VOC had a large private army, but the Dutch soldiers in that time had to buy their own equipment. 75% of the soldiers of the VOC were foreigners. Most of them came from Poland, Sweden, Danmark and Germany.
I don't say that it is impossible that a blade was marked with the VOC mark but it is most unlikely.

Blades with a VOC mark came up in the 18th century. In that period the army of the VOC became more standardized with rules for the equipment.

Amak Murugul,

VOC blades are hard to find and very expensive. Without a picture of the sword it is hard to tell if the sword offered to your friend is a fake but I think he did well by declining the offer.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Pardon my gnorance,
what does VOC mean ?

That is WAY not a word I would associate with you my friend!!!

Jim

Mark · 29th April 2008, 07:30 PM

I don't know if anyone had tried the Amsterdam Maritime Museum (Scheepvaartmuseum) for information. They appear to be closed until 2010 for renovations, but I expect the people there are still reacheable.

I thought that there was a VOC museum as well, but I couldn't find anything on the internet.

Henk · 29th April 2008, 09:29 PM

Mark,

There is no VOC museum in Amsterdam. VOC collections are exhibited in several museums in the Netherlands. Among them the "Rijksmuseum" in Amsterdam or the "Amsterdams Historisch Museum".

I found this link: http://www.scheepvaartmuseum.nl/index.php?PageID=173

I searched for blades with VOC marks in a search engine for the maritiem museums, but I found only an inventory list that named an indonesian sword with VOC blade. Unfortunately no picture.

http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/search.aspx

Maybe someone with more patience can give it a try.....

26th April 2008, 10:32 PM	#1
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 457	Dutch - VOC Blade - HELP! needed Hullo everybody, Can anyone help me with info (manufacturer, dimensions, pictures etc.) about VOC blades made around 1602-1606? Sorry if it is not the right topic for this forum. Thank you.

27th April 2008, 12:24 AM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Pardon my gnorance, what does VOC mean ?

27th April 2008, 03:45 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Hi Fernando, VOC= Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie. Good question Amuk. I'm not sure offhand about blades marked that early, the greatest preponderance of VOC blades seem to be from the 18th century, especially around 1760's. It seems that a great deal of the examples of kastane are mounted with these marked VOC blades and in that period. I always tried to find one so marked, but they are pretty much all collected and staying tight! Can you tell us more of what your interest is? Maybe we might get better idea of where to look for info. all the best Jim

27th April 2008, 03:55 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Don't say it Jim .........

27th April 2008, 06:24 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Rick! I burst out laughing on that one!!!!!LOL JUDL!!! I've been plowing through stuff for hours and once as I gasped, the forbidden thread came up on the google search I had on. I think that will be forever the thread of all time. As I regain my composure, I will share with Amuk what I have found Apparantly little detailed information exists on arms and armor production in the Netherlands, but centers existed in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Tournai in Flanders. It seems that they did import large portion of arms and armor from Italy and Germany. ref: "Famous Makers and European Centers of Arms and Armor Production", Dirk H. Breiding, Metropolitan Museum of Art, "Timeline of Art History" 2000. There would have been considerable examples of Spanish and Italian rapier forms c.1600, and for more military use, these were primarily the German imports. These would have been heavy bladed 'Sinclair sabre' types of sabres with shellguards and varying forms of developing basket style hilts, some with heavy straight blades. In "Blanke Wapens:Nederlandse slag-en steekwapens sinds 1600" J.P.Puype, 1981, some of these are discussed, however since my Dutch is 'nada' I cant relay much. As far as the VOC, the firm was officially formed in 1602, the blades on the swords would not have of course had any particular regulation as far as I would imagine. The officers of course would have worn most likely rapiers as noted of Italian or Spanish form, while other ranks or individuals would have used the military swords of the time. I have not yet found at what point the VOC markings might have begun to appear on blades, but I would not expect them to appear as property type stamps until much later, and even then, not on the officers weapons. FYI....the in house LOL at the beginning here concerns a thread about a VOC sword that just about drove us all nuts over a period of several years! It was the thread that would not die! ....Shaver Kool!! Sorry Rick! I just had to 'splain it'. All the best, Jim

27th April 2008, 06:44 AM	#8
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 457	Hullo everybody , Jim, Thank you for your reply. I am doing this for a friend who doesn't speak English very well. We share an interest in implements used/adopted/adapted by the Sunda. Some time ago, he was offered a sword. Apparently, it looked a bit like a Klewang. The handle was rather crude, with a D guard and a brass sheet wrapped over the grip. The blade had 1606 VOC marked on both sides. He declined the offer, but it has been niggling him ever since ("Was it fake?"). My research has found nothing. However, I remember, some time back, coming across an article (on the Internet and in Dutch) about the tell-tales of Dutch blades and how to spot a fake. As it was not part of my research at the time, I didn't want to be distracted and moved on. Now I can no longer find the article. (I should've tagged it when I had the chance). I hope I have answered your question about my interest. Thank you again.

27th April 2008, 10:31 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I doubt weapons were marked with the VOC mark in that early period of the VOC. Most weapons in that period were made in Solingen and assembled in Köln. Also in Luik (Liege) Belgium many weapons were produced. The VOC had a large private army, but the Dutch soldiers in that time had to buy their own equipment. 75% of the soldiers of the VOC were foreigners. Most of them came from Poland, Sweden, Danmark and Germany. I don't say that it is impossible that a blade was marked with the VOC mark but it is most unlikely. Blades with a VOC mark came up in the 18th century. In that period the army of the VOC became more standardized with rules for the equipment. Amak Murugul, VOC blades are hard to find and very expensive. Without a picture of the sword it is hard to tell if the sword offered to your friend is a fake but I think he did well by declining the offer.

29th April 2008, 07:30 PM	#11
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I don't know if anyone had tried the Amsterdam Maritime Museum (Scheepvaartmuseum) for information. They appear to be closed until 2010 for renovations, but I expect the people there are still reacheable. I thought that there was a VOC museum as well, but I couldn't find anything on the internet.

29th April 2008, 09:29 PM	#12
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Mark, There is no VOC museum in Amsterdam. VOC collections are exhibited in several museums in the Netherlands. Among them the "Rijksmuseum" in Amsterdam or the "Amsterdams Historisch Museum". I found this link: http://www.scheepvaartmuseum.nl/index.php?PageID=173 I searched for blades with VOC marks in a search engine for the maritiem museums, but I found only an inventory list that named an indonesian sword with VOC blade. Unfortunately no picture. http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/search.aspx Maybe someone with more patience can give it a try.....