Garuda Kris

kai · 25th March 2023, 12:59 AM

Hello Gavin,

Quote:

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

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A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 25th March 2023, 01:45 AM

Hi Kai,

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

I'm in the OTOH basket... they've already been presented and the type require context. Further to this, from the type presented, there have been other related type thrown in because of regional crossovers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.Kai

Indeed, almost anything is plausible within the time and place parameters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).

Where the Malay states are concerned, I note The Spirit of Wood and the Bunja Tanjong flower. See Spirit of wood, page 10 and numerous other references in the index.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the ongoing discussions.

Gavin Nugent · 25th March 2023, 03:48 AM

Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far.

I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu.

I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation.

I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time.

Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu.

When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started...

Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him.

Edit note **Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings**

Gavin Nugent · 27th May 2023, 12:35 PM

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

kai · 28th May 2023, 12:30 PM

Thanks, Gavin, for keeping this going!

Quote:

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Yes, it has been my working hypothesis, that these hilt styles might likely be related. Not sure whether one developed from the other or possibly both from any earlier ancestral style.

There are strong historic links between the (especially eastern) Malay Peninsula, Brunei, and Bangsa Moro.

Regards,
Kai

SanibelSwassa · 28th July 2023, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Gavin,

I wanted to take a second to thank you and others for the wealth of thought and effort put into discussing this topic and for the willingness to explore. I apologize for being MIA and will try to continue to at to the discussion as I find new examples and evidence. I still lean toward a root based outside the traditional muslin influence, but obviously a firm answer may not ever be attainable. However, there is joy in the journey!!

Gavin Nugent · 27th May 2023, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

kai · 28th May 2023, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

Apologies, Gavin - too much on my plate and just forgot to follow up.

27th May 2023, 12:35 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there.... Attached Images

25th March 2023, 03:48 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far. I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu. I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation. I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time. Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu. When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started... Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him. Edit note Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 25th March 2023 at 05:09 AM.