Is this a whale's tooth?

harrywagner · 4th January 2016, 06:50 PM

This is a Keris that I purchased from Ron over the holidays. Here is what I have been able to determine: the dress is Ladrang form, wooden Sarong with a plain brass Pendok. The Mendak is also brass and lightly decorated, the Wilah is 13 Dapor Lok with an interesting Pamor. The Ukiran is a mystery. Is it a whale's tooth? I've compared it side by side with two other knives that have stag horn handles and I am not convinced this is stag horn. Anyone know? TIA for any help!

BTW... If you've not bought from Ron you have missed the best buyer experience ever.

Happy New Year!
Harry

Henk · 4th January 2016, 07:13 PM

Ivory?

David · 4th January 2016, 07:52 PM

It looks like bone to me, but photos can be deceptive.

harrywagner · 4th January 2016, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Ivory?

Maybe. Here is what professor Google says:

Thirty teeth of the sperm whale can be used for ivory. Each of these teeth, up to 8" long and 3" across, are hollow for the first half of their length. Sperm whale ivory is easily confused with walrus ivory, as both have two distinct layers. The inner layer of sperm whale ivory, however, is much larger.

I don't think it is bone, but I could be mistaken.

Rick · 4th January 2016, 08:44 PM

Bone.
Let's see the end of the handle.
The dentine of Walrus is very different from Sperm Whale dentine.

VANDOO · 4th January 2016, 08:53 PM

MY BEST GUESS FROM THE PICTURES IS BONE OR ANTLER. SPERM WHALE TEETH DON'T HAVE PORES AND ARE USUALLY OF A UNIFORM SMOOTHNESS AND COLOR. KERIS HANDLES ARE OFTEN MADE FROM ANTLER OR BONE THOUGH IVORY IS SOMETIMES USED, MOST I HAVE SEEN AND COULD IDENTIFY WERE ELEPHANT IVORY. NICE REGARDLESS AND THESE DAYS ITS BETTER NOT TO RUN A-FOUL OF THE FOUL IVORY LAWS THAT BAN EVERYTHING REGARDLESS OF AGE AND ORIGIN.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2016, 08:55 PM

Bone or de-natured antler. Not whales tooth.

harrywagner · 4th January 2016, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Bone.
Let's see the end of the handle.
The dentine of Walrus is very different from Sperm Whale dentine.

Hopefully this is good enough for a positive ID. The lighting in my home office is not very good. Thanks for the help!

Rick · 4th January 2016, 09:49 PM

If bone I'd expect to see a porous end on this handle. Of course these handles are sometimes capped with an insert, but I can't make one out.

harrywagner · 4th January 2016, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If bone I'd expect to see a porous end on this handle. Of course these handles are sometimes capped with an insert, but I can't make one out.

Thank you for trying. I can't identify it either. The size and shape made me think it might be a tooth. Keep in mind that I would not know one if it bit me! I have only been collecting a couple of years and am reasonably certain I have never held a piece of ivory before. I won't rule bone out. It looks worn down and seems old. Any suggestions for an age? Thanks again for the help!

Happy new year!
Harry

Battara · 5th January 2016, 12:39 AM

Tooth of just about any animal does not have the type of striations that this has. These striations belong to bone. Some bone chosen does not have ends that are not so porous, depending upon the cut of bone.

Besides, whale tooth is grayer in color with layers.

My vote: bone (or less likely antler).

harrywagner · 5th January 2016, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Tooth of just about any animal does not have the type of striations that this has. These striations belong to bone. Some bone chosen does not have ends that are not so porous, depending upon the cut of bone.

Besides, whale tooth is grayer in color with layers.

My vote: bone (or less likely antler).

Many thanks to yourself, Vandoo, Rick and others. I will put this one down as bone. I appreciate the help, and am fine with it being bone. I like this one. The hilt is worn enough that it feels incredibly smooth. I am guessing it has some age. Do you think I would be way off to think it is early 20h?

COYOTE · 5th January 2016, 05:08 AM

My vote is bone, absolutely not tooth, antler, elephant or marine ivory.

COYOTE · 5th January 2016, 05:23 AM

The striations, small parallel lines visible all over the hilt, are the "scars" of the blood vessels when the bone was alive, part of a living creature.
In my opinion, this is the most important and reliable criterion to classify this material as bone.

Jean · 5th January 2016, 07:42 PM

I would like to see the peksi hole (decaying/ pitting or not?) before giving a more definite opinion but would guess for either tanduk rusa (deer antller) or whale bone (not tooth). The origin of the piece is probably East Java and from the patina its age may be about 100 years indeed.
Regards

kai · 6th January 2016, 02:34 AM

Hello Harry,

Congrats, this is IMVHO a nice keris!

Quote:

I will put this one down as bone.

It is regular bone (probably water buffalo) - the (not shown) base of the upper side shows the exposed porous inner side.

Whale bone tends to be more porous, polishing less smoothly, and less resistant to wear.

Stag tends to be more homogenous if selected and worked well.

Quote:

The hilt is worn enough that it feels incredibly smooth. I am guessing it has some age. Do you think I would be way off to think it is early 20h?

Well polished bone can be very smooth to begin with; this is obviously well worn, too.

We don't know how long this keris has been out of regular use within the culture (and retired into a collection) which makes judging the age of any part based on wear unreliable. Given this disclaimer, I would not be surprised if this hilt were from the 19th century. First quarter of the 20th c. may be a good conservative estimate though.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th January 2016, 02:42 AM

Hello Harry,

The scabbard crafted from a single piece of wood is something that should be especially mentioned!

Quote:

This is a Keris that I purchased from Ron over the holidays.
<snip>
BTW... If you've not bought from Ron you have missed the best buyer experience ever.

I certainly can recommend him, too!

Regards,
Kai

Marcokeris · 6th January 2016, 03:18 PM

elephant bone ?

harrywagner · 6th January 2016, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

elephant bone ?

I think it is whale bone. At least I vaguely remember Ron mentioning that. It does not look like any bone I have ever seen before. That it was a tooth was wishful thinking on my part. I am always looking for the Holy Grail

Many thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions, etc. It helps a lot.

Harry

harrywagner · 6th January 2016, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I would like to see the peksi hole (decaying/ pitting or not?) before giving a more definite opinion but would guess for either tanduk rusa (deer antller) or whale bone (not tooth). The origin of the piece is probably East Java and from the patina its age may be about 100 years indeed.
Regards

Hi Jean,
I am afraid you lost me at peksi hole! What is that?

harrywagner · 6th January 2016, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Harry,

The scabbard crafted from a single piece of wood is something that should be especially mentioned!

I certainly can recommend him, too!

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,
Many thanks for your help with the hilt. I think you are right about it being bone. Thanks also for pointing out the "single piece" scabbard. I had not noticed that. Happy new year!

Rick · 6th January 2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hi Jean,
I am afraid you lost me at peksi hole! What is that?

Refers to the hole in the handle that the tang (peksi) of the keris fits into.

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2016, 12:39 AM

In the Javanese language, the word "peksi" means "bird", it is krama (ie, high level Javanese) for "bird", the ngoko (low level, common level) equivalent is "manuk".

The word "pesi" is the correct word to use for a keris tang, or other stick tang, in some applications it can also mean a "pin".

The confusion between these two words is understandable, because the "k" in "peksi" is a glottal stop, which goes virtually unheard, especially by a non-native speaker of Javanese.

harrywagner · 7th January 2016, 01:40 AM

The peksi hole. Thanks again for the help!

Sajen · 8th January 2016, 08:32 PM

Hello Harry,

look like antler or indeed whalebone on your last picture, I would sort out other bone. It's sometimes very difficult to determine the exact origin of the used material, even elephant ivory can become very difficult when it's very worn.
And it's very awkward to get a decision without handling the material. So it's my best guess.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 9th January 2016, 01:41 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

look like antler or indeed whalebone on your last picture, I would sort out other bone.

I'm afraid I don't see any notable hints for it being made from stag nor whalebone. Still looks like "generic" bone from a terrestrial mammal to me...

Quote:

And it's very awkward to get a decision without handling the material. So it's my best guess.

Agreed - just my 2 cents as well.

Regards,
Kai

Green · 9th January 2016, 06:53 AM

since you bought it from Ron, why don't we ask our good friend Ron for his opinion too? (He must be lurking here sometimes too I guess

And you're right, Ron is a great seller... in fact I've been considering to buy this keris too but you beat me to it. Congrats .I like the hilt. doesn't matter if it's made from bone or other wise. it still is a v handsome hilt to my eyes.

David · 9th January 2016, 09:27 AM

Gentleman, while i am sure that our good friend Ron appreciates all of your compliments i would like to remind you that we do indeed have many regular keris dealers in our ranks and it is probably best not to to single out any one for endorsement over any other in the context of these pages. It could become awkward. And let's keep in mind the non-commercial nature of these forums if we can please.

Sajen · 9th January 2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm afraid I don't see any notable hints for it being made from stag nor whalebone. Still looks like "generic" bone from a terrestrial mammal to me...

Hello Kai,
I just miss the porouness this material normally have. But like said, it's difficult to get a desicion without handling it.

Regards,
Detlef

harrywagner · 9th January 2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

since you bought it from Ron, why don't we ask our good friend Ron for his opinion too? (He must be lurking here sometimes too I guess

And you're right, Ron is a great seller... in fact I've been considering to buy this keris too but you beat me to it. Congrats .I like the hilt. doesn't matter if it's made from bone or other wise. it still is a v handsome hilt to my eyes.

Actually I did ask Ron, and if my memory still serves he thought it was whale bone. Don't quote me on that though. I was looking at four beautiful Keris laid out on my dining room table and was probably in shock.

it really makes no difference to me what the hilt is. It was a good purchase and is one of my favorites now. I would buy it again in a heartbeat!

4th January 2016, 06:50 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Is this a whale's tooth? This is a Keris that I purchased from Ron over the holidays. Here is what I have been able to determine: the dress is Ladrang form, wooden Sarong with a plain brass Pendok. The Mendak is also brass and lightly decorated, the Wilah is 13 Dapor Lok with an interesting Pamor. The Ukiran is a mystery. Is it a whale's tooth? I've compared it side by side with two other knives that have stag horn handles and I am not convinced this is stag horn. Anyone know? TIA for any help! BTW... If you've not bought from Ron you have missed the best buyer experience ever. Happy New Year! Harry Attached Images

5th January 2016, 05:08 AM	#13
COYOTE Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil Posts: 27	Bone, 100% My vote is bone, absolutely not tooth, antler, elephant or marine ivory.

5th January 2016, 05:23 AM	#14
COYOTE Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil Posts: 27	Bone, 100% The striations, small parallel lines visible all over the hilt, are the "scars" of the blood vessels when the bone was alive, part of a living creature. In my opinion, this is the most important and reliable criterion to classify this material as bone.

7th January 2016, 01:40 AM	#24
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Peksi hole The peksi hole. Thanks again for the help! Attached Images

4th January 2016, 07:13 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ivory?

4th January 2016, 07:52 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	It looks like bone to me, but photos can be deceptive.

4th January 2016, 08:44 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Bone. Let's see the end of the handle. The dentine of Walrus is very different from Sperm Whale dentine.

4th January 2016, 08:53 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY BEST GUESS FROM THE PICTURES IS BONE OR ANTLER. SPERM WHALE TEETH DON'T HAVE PORES AND ARE USUALLY OF A UNIFORM SMOOTHNESS AND COLOR. KERIS HANDLES ARE OFTEN MADE FROM ANTLER OR BONE THOUGH IVORY IS SOMETIMES USED, MOST I HAVE SEEN AND COULD IDENTIFY WERE ELEPHANT IVORY. NICE REGARDLESS AND THESE DAYS ITS BETTER NOT TO RUN A-FOUL OF THE FOUL IVORY LAWS THAT BAN EVERYTHING REGARDLESS OF AGE AND ORIGIN.

4th January 2016, 08:55 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Bone or de-natured antler. Not whales tooth.

4th January 2016, 09:49 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	If bone I'd expect to see a porous end on this handle. Of course these handles are sometimes capped with an insert, but I can't make one out.

5th January 2016, 12:39 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Tooth of just about any animal does not have the type of striations that this has. These striations belong to bone. Some bone chosen does not have ends that are not so porous, depending upon the cut of bone. Besides, whale tooth is grayer in color with layers. My vote: bone (or less likely antler).

5th January 2016, 07:42 PM	#15
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I would like to see the peksi hole (decaying/ pitting or not?) before giving a more definite opinion but would guess for either tanduk rusa (deer antller) or whale bone (not tooth). The origin of the piece is probably East Java and from the patina its age may be about 100 years indeed. Regards

6th January 2016, 03:18 PM	#18
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	elephant bone ?

7th January 2016, 12:39 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	In the Javanese language, the word "peksi" means "bird", it is krama (ie, high level Javanese) for "bird", the ngoko (low level, common level) equivalent is "manuk". The word "pesi" is the correct word to use for a keris tang, or other stick tang, in some applications it can also mean a "pin". The confusion between these two words is understandable, because the "k" in "peksi" is a glottal stop, which goes virtually unheard, especially by a non-native speaker of Javanese.

8th January 2016, 08:32 PM	#25
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,468	Hello Harry, look like antler or indeed whalebone on your last picture, I would sort out other bone. It's sometimes very difficult to determine the exact origin of the used material, even elephant ivory can become very difficult when it's very worn. And it's very awkward to get a decision without handling the material. So it's my best guess. Regards, Detlef

9th January 2016, 06:53 AM	#27
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 307	since you bought it from Ron, why don't we ask our good friend Ron for his opinion too? (He must be lurking here sometimes too I guess And you're right, Ron is a great seller... in fact I've been considering to buy this keris too but you beat me to it. Congrats .I like the hilt. doesn't matter if it's made from bone or other wise. it still is a v handsome hilt to my eyes.

9th January 2016, 09:27 AM	#28
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Gentleman, while i am sure that our good friend Ron appreciates all of your compliments i would like to remind you that we do indeed have many regular keris dealers in our ranks and it is probably best not to to single out any one for endorsement over any other in the context of these pages. It could become awkward. And let's keep in mind the non-commercial nature of these forums if we can please.