iron ignot?

eftihis · 18th July 2007, 02:13 PM

Hi! I bought this small metal ball from an antique shop in Chania, the owner inisted this was a ball from a small cannon.
The ball is very small, in one photo is near a bichaq to show the size.
But the ball is not round at all, and it was made this way!
Could it be a sort of "iron ignot" from the 19th century or earlier? I have seen "wootz iron" ignots of this size, but more round. Any ideas?

Jens Nordlunde · 18th July 2007, 03:37 PM

You may find the answer here, "Wootz ingots, where do they all come from?".

Flavio · 18th July 2007, 03:41 PM

Hey Jens, seems an X-file

Ian · 18th July 2007, 03:54 PM

The file Jens referred to is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1410

Jens Nordlunde · 18th July 2007, 04:19 PM

Flavio, it almost is, but not quite

.

Ian, thank you for helping me, for some reason or other, I could not copy the link, and so I gave the thread name instead

.

Eftihis, I am no expert on ingots, to me it looks more like a mill ball, but I think those who know the difference should tell you. There is, however, one thing you can do, and that is to grind a bit of the surface away and try to etch the raw metal. This would give you an indication, as I understand it, but only an indication – good luck

.

Mark · 18th July 2007, 04:21 PM

It looks like an ingot to me. They can be mixed up with milling balls, which are used to crush ore, but I think those are round.

Ann Feuerbach or Ric Furrer are the authorities on this stuff. Paging Drs. Feuerbach & Furrer ...

Jens Nordlunde · 18th July 2007, 04:34 PM

I may be wrong, but i think it was Jeff Pringle who pointed us in the direction of the mill balls.

ariel · 18th July 2007, 11:19 PM

As per Eftihis, this piece is not round at all: it is polygonal and looks as if it was purposefully made this way.
I see no reason for wootz ingots to be shaped like that and no explanation for a spontaneous formation of a complex geometrical feature. Some kind of weight measure?

sabertasche · 19th July 2007, 05:57 AM

I think weight measures are usually marked with whatever weight they are supposed to be. I suspect that unless you polish and etch it to see if there are cementite and pearlite particles you will never know.

Another fantasy theory my be that this really is a canon ball but for use against non Christians. Just a theory, of course.

greg

Tim Simmons · 19th July 2007, 06:48 AM

Grape shot or a lump of canister shot? It would not have to be well formed like a cannon ball?

kronckew · 19th July 2007, 06:59 AM

looks like it would work fine in an onager

Richard Furrer · 19th July 2007, 02:31 PM

Hello All,
Indeed it was Jeff who pointed the direction of the mill ball.
The few I have had chemically tesed which a friend had from India were high in chromium which places it outside the wootz realm.

Etching a window will show you if it is cast or not, but not much more.

I have a few more here which I have yet to test so I cannot comment on what ALL of them are.

Ric

Mark · 19th July 2007, 02:39 PM

Ric,

Are ingots (wootz or not) polygonal like this, at least sometimes? I recall seeing a couple facetted ones on Artzi's table at the Timonium show a few years back. Such a polygon would not, I think, work very well as a mill ball as it would have a reduced area of contact with the ore, and would not roll around as well. Whatever it is, I expect that the shape allows them to be packed more tightly, and/or stacked more stably.

Jeff Pringle · 19th July 2007, 04:38 PM

The grinding media used in ball mills can have a faceted appearance. When new, flat spots or points could increase impact pressure to improve the rate at which things got crushed in the mill, but I suspect they just naturally develop when the stuff you are crushing is partially harder than the shot.
Things to look for are asymmetric angles and numbers of facets and variations in shape and concavity/convexity from face to face, typically if something is made to be polygonal it will be regular, uniform, symmetric to a greater degree.
I don’t think ingots have ever had facets…

This ball from an old mine is 2.5” ~6.4 cm across:

18th July 2007, 02:13 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	iron ignot? Hi! I bought this small metal ball from an antique shop in Chania, the owner inisted this was a ball from a small cannon. The ball is very small, in one photo is near a bichaq to show the size. But the ball is not round at all, and it was made this way! Could it be a sort of "iron ignot" from the 19th century or earlier? I have seen "wootz iron" ignots of this size, but more round. Any ideas? Attached Images

18th July 2007, 03:54 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Old file ... The file Jens referred to is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1410

18th July 2007, 04:19 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Flavio, it almost is, but not quite. Ian, thank you for helping me, for some reason or other, I could not copy the link, and so I gave the thread name instead. Eftihis, I am no expert on ingots, to me it looks more like a mill ball, but I think those who know the difference should tell you. There is, however, one thing you can do, and that is to grind a bit of the surface away and try to etch the raw metal. This would give you an indication, as I understand it, but only an indication – good luck.

18th July 2007, 11:19 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per Eftihis, this piece is not round at all: it is polygonal and looks as if it was purposefully made this way. I see no reason for wootz ingots to be shaped like that and no explanation for a spontaneous formation of a complex geometrical feature. Some kind of weight measure? Last edited by ariel; 19th July 2007 at 03:39 AM.

19th July 2007, 04:38 PM	#14
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The grinding media used in ball mills can have a faceted appearance. When new, flat spots or points could increase impact pressure to improve the rate at which things got crushed in the mill, but I suspect they just naturally develop when the stuff you are crushing is partially harder than the shot. Things to look for are asymmetric angles and numbers of facets and variations in shape and concavity/convexity from face to face, typically if something is made to be polygonal it will be regular, uniform, symmetric to a greater degree. I don’t think ingots have ever had facets… This ball from an old mine is 2.5” ~6.4 cm across: Attached Images

18th July 2007, 03:37 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	You may find the answer here, "Wootz ingots, where do they all come from?".

18th July 2007, 03:41 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hey Jens, seems an X-file

18th July 2007, 04:21 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It looks like an ingot to me. They can be mixed up with milling balls, which are used to crush ore, but I think those are round. Ann Feuerbach or Ric Furrer are the authorities on this stuff. Paging Drs. Feuerbach & Furrer ...

18th July 2007, 04:34 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I may be wrong, but i think it was Jeff Pringle who pointed us in the direction of the mill balls.

19th July 2007, 05:57 AM	#9
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	I think weight measures are usually marked with whatever weight they are supposed to be. I suspect that unless you polish and etch it to see if there are cementite and pearlite particles you will never know. Another fantasy theory my be that this really is a canon ball but for use against non Christians. Just a theory, of course. greg

19th July 2007, 06:48 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Grape shot or a lump of canister shot? It would not have to be well formed like a cannon ball?

19th July 2007, 06:59 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	looks like it would work fine in an onager

19th July 2007, 02:31 PM	#12
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Hello All, Indeed it was Jeff who pointed the direction of the mill ball. The few I have had chemically tesed which a friend had from India were high in chromium which places it outside the wootz realm. Etching a window will show you if it is cast or not, but not much more. I have a few more here which I have yet to test so I cannot comment on what ALL of them are. Ric

19th July 2007, 02:39 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Ric, Are ingots (wootz or not) polygonal like this, at least sometimes? I recall seeing a couple facetted ones on Artzi's table at the Timonium show a few years back. Such a polygon would not, I think, work very well as a mill ball as it would have a reduced area of contact with the ore, and would not roll around as well. Whatever it is, I expect that the shape allows them to be packed more tightly, and/or stacked more stably.