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Old 16th June 2017, 10:42 PM   #1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Default Medieval Weapons and Men At Arms.

Salaams, Since I know next to nothing about European Armoury I thought to launch this thread and give the key so that members can do their own look up. The coordinates for this exercise are https://www.pinterest.com/pin/176484879125643485/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:31 AM   #2
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Then I thought....
SCENE IV. Another part of the field.

Alarum: excursions. Enter NORFOLK and forces fighting; to him CATESBY
CATESBY
Rescue, my Lord of Norfolk, rescue, rescue!
The king enacts more wonders than a man,
Daring an opposite to every danger:
His horse is slain, and all on foot he fights,
Seeking for Richmond in the throat of death.
Rescue, fair lord, or else the day is lost!
Alarums. Enter KING RICHARD III

KING RICHARD III
A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!
CATESBY
Withdraw, my lord; I'll help you to a horse.
KING RICHARD III
Slave, I have set my life upon a cast,
And I will stand the hazard of the die:
I think there be six Richmonds in the field;
Five have I slain to-day instead of him.
A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:59 AM   #3
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Thank you for sharing these, several of the works display a high level of technical proficiency from an artistic standpoint and of course they all have value as pictorial documentation of the period. I would like to point out that the fourth picture from the very bottom of your latest post is chronologically distinctive in that its portrayals are definitely post-medieval. It's the one showing the two riders in russeted (browned) armor; note that one of them is brandishing a long-barreled pistol. His companion is carrying another such weapon in his right hand, only its barrel being visible. A carbine is suspended barrel-downward in a saddle-boot on this man's left side, along with a sword which appears to be a transitional rapier. The barrel of a musket appears on the left, mid-background. These elements would date the scene to sometime in the 17th cent., making it definitely post-medieval in theme. I will leave it to the costume and armor specialists to pin down a geographic locus for the characters.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Thank you for sharing these, several of the works display a high level of technical proficiency from an artistic standpoint and of course they all have value as pictorial documentation of the period. I would like to point out that the fourth picture from the very bottom of your latest post is chronologically distinctive in that its portrayals are definitely post-medieval. It's the one showing the two riders in russeted (browned) armor; note that one of them is brandishing a long-barreled pistol. His companion is carrying another such weapon in his right hand, only its barrel being visible. A carbine is suspended barrel-downward in a saddle-boot on this man's left side, along with a sword which appears to be a transitional rapier. The barrel of a musket appears on the left, mid-background. These elements would date the scene to sometime in the 17th cent., making it definitely post-medieval in theme. I will leave it to the costume and armor specialists to pin down a geographic locus for the characters.


Salaams Philip ~I so liked the picture I threw it in anyway although of course you are spot on Philip...Apologies for jumping the gun on that one !

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Old 17th June 2017, 05:37 AM   #5
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Staying with horses I note from Wikepedia Quote" The destrier is the best-known war horse of the medieval era. It carried knights in battles, tournaments, and jousts. It was described by contemporary sources as the Great Horse, due to its significance.

The word destrier is derived from the Vulgar Latin dextarius, meaning "right-sided" (the same root as dexterous and dexterity). This may refer to it being led by the squire at the knight's right side (or led by the right hand) or to the horse's gait, (possibly leading with the right).[1]

While highly prized by knights and men-at-arms, the destrier was not very common.[2] Most knights and mounted men-at-arms rode other war horses, such as coursers and rounceys.[3] These three types of horse were often referred to generically as chargers."Unquote.
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Old 17th June 2017, 06:12 AM   #6
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Here I must do Jousting !!

The key to Jousting Tournament Horses is;

http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/20...ament-book.html

~ and on this site are some excellent pictures!!
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... I would like to point out that the fourth picture from the very bottom of your latest post is chronologically distinctive in that its portrayals are definitely post-medieval...

Sharp eye ... as usal, Philip.
And yet as you know, (late) middle ages were also the dawn of firearms, with the introduction of "trons", bombards and all jazz.
As in my factional perspective i like to bring to light the battle of Aljubarrota (1385), where it is established by a well recognized period chroniclar that the Spaniards came to the game with over a dozen trons but from which unfortunately there are no graphic evidence, we can depart from an ilumination of this battle contained in Chronique d'Angleterre (1401-1500) by Jean Wavrin, kept at the British Library and also the Siege of Lisbon (1384) by Jean Froissart (1337-1405), followed by a few picturesque illustrations from the said Chronique, as an atempt to stay in line with this thread topic.
I hope to be excused if these images are already known to everyone; intention was good.


,
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:51 PM   #8
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... a couple more.


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Old 18th June 2017, 04:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Sharp eye ... as usal, Philip.
And yet as you know, middle ages were also the dawn of firearms, with the introduction of "trons", bombards and all jazz.



,


So true, Fernando.
Thanks for posting some images from your files, that show some of these types of very early guns you mention, from an era much preceding the scene I commented on, with the mounted pistoleros whose weapons were very likely wheellocks. Let's see if someone out there would like to comment on the russeted armor with close-helmets these same guys are wearing, that's a field I'd like to learn more about.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:59 AM   #10
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Salaams Philip,
In Respect of #2 second picture from top and refered to in the previous post ~To slightly tidy that picture up a little; It was painted in 1618 by Sebastiaen Vrancx who is seen in portrait below and who painted a lot of Eighty Years War battles as well as other non combat works of art... He had been an officer in that war thus he painted with some authority.

From Wikipedia I Quote "Sebastiaen Vrancx, Sebastiaan Vrancx or Sebastian Vranckx[1] (pronounced [ˈvrɑŋs]; 22 January 1573 – 19 May 1647) was a Flemish Baroque painter and draughtsman who is mainly known for his battle scenes, a genre that he pioneered in Netherlandish painting. He also created landscapes with mythological and allegorical scenes, scenes with robbers, village scenes and celebrations in cities.[2] He was a gifted figure painter who was regularly invited to paint the staffage(see below) in compositions of fellow painters.[3]"Unquote.

Staffage ~
In any Old Master landscape, townscape or villagescape, you may find figures embarking on their daily activities. ‘Staffage’, a term more commonly adopted in the late-18th and early-19th centuries — possibly derived from the Old French term estoffe, meaning 'stuff’, or the German staffieren for ‘decorate’ — refers to the human and animal figures that populate pictures, either with subtle anonymity or with historical and biblical significance.

For comparison I place another similar battle by Vrancx showing the shock effect of pistols~ wheel locks at short range by charging cavalry in full armour!

See https://books.google.com.om/books?i...s%20war&f=false for techniques to blacken armour which was a regulation..

They used soot and linseed oil then burned it on. Browning and blueing were more expensive...

See also http://jeanmoust.com/categories/bat...en/item-1142207 for some history on the 30 and 80 years wars...and more artist details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:50 AM   #11
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Jousting continued...

Reference;
A. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=jousting

From Wikepedia Quote" Jousting is a martial game or hastilude between two horsemen wielding weapons of joust with blunted tips, often as part of a tournament. The primary aim was to replicate a clash of heavy cavalry, with each opponent trying hard to strike the opponent while riding towards him at high speed, if possible breaking the weapon of joust on the opponent's shield or jousting armour, or unhorsing him. The joust became an iconic characteristic of the knight in Romantic medievalism. The participants experience close to three and a quarter times their body weight in G-forces when the weapons of joust collide with their armor.[1]

The term is derived from Old French joster, ultimately from Latin iuxtare "to approach, to meet". The word was loaned into Middle English around 1300, when jousting was a very popular sport among the Anglo-Norman knighthood. The synonym tilt dates ca. 1510.

Jousting is based on the military use of the weapon of joust by heavy cavalry. It transformed into a specialised sport during the Late Middle Ages, and remained popular with the nobility in England and Wales and Germany throughout the whole of the 16th century (while in France, it was discontinued after the death of King Henry II in an accident in 1559).[2] In England, jousting was the highlight of the Accession Day tilts of Elizabeth I and James I, and also was part of the festivities at the marriage of Charles I.[3]

Jousting was discontinued in favour of other equestrian sports in the 17th century, although non-contact forms of "equestrian skill-at-arms" disciplines survived. There has been a limited revival of theatrical jousting re-enactment since the 1970s."Unquote.

The smallest picture below shows~ Depiction of a standing joust in an Alsatian manuscript of ca. 1420 (CPG 359); protection for the legs of the riders is integrated into the horse armour.

Key to the last three pictures below which includes Henry VIII Armour is at http://www.thetudortattler.com/2012...usting-and.html

For the others simply type Jousting Tournaments into the web.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:01 AM   #12
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The following detailed package is available on the web at http://www.medievalwarfare.info/ and is an excellent resource.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Jousting continued ...

From Wikepedia Quote" Jousting is a martial game or hastilude between two horsemen wielding weapons of joust with blunted tips, often as part of a tournament...

The term is derived from Old French joster, ultimately from Latin iuxtare "to approach, to meet"...

If i may Ibrahiim ... a little home made adjustment:
Looking into Portuguese dictionary there are two separate aceptations for the term justa (joust). One is Provençal (Occitan) josta, meaning in fact confrontation, namely middle age tournaments, in which combats between two men armed with a lance took place. The other is Latin juxta, meaning just, no more no less, the right measure, from which taking it as a prefix means by side, together with.
Not much of a differene, anyhow.
Herewith a few lance heads used in these combats, pictured at the Metropolitan Museum.


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Old 19th June 2017, 01:48 PM   #14
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And a few years ago from the Philadelphia Museum i brought the following pictures, those associated with knigths tournaments.


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Old 19th June 2017, 06:09 PM   #15
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And here is a magnificent collection of tournament shields (pavises) at the Metro, posted by member Andi:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=pavise
(Scroll down the thread for uploaded images).
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
... Jousting was discontinued in favour of other equestrian sports in the 17th century, although non-contact forms of "equestrian skill-at-arms" disciplines survived...

Like this one ...

(Pictured at the Philadelphia Museum).


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Old 20th June 2017, 09:45 PM   #17
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A well thought out dictionary of Jousting terms is at http://www.thejoustinglife.com/2013...ting-terms.html

See http://www.medieval-life-and-times....ords-and-armor/ for a compendium of detail on the general subject of Medieval Swords and Armour.

European Medieval Arms and Armour http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/make/hd_make.htm

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Old 20th June 2017, 11:24 PM   #18
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Leaving the art of Jousting to one flank I wondered about Medieval Sword and Armour Makers thus I now turn to that wide subject and taking an essay at the MET Museum as the start point I Quote'' Dirk H. Breiding
Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art on the website http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/make/hd_make.htm

Despite the fame of their legendary predecessors, as well as many Far Eastern counterparts, comparatively little is known about European makers of arms and armor. The names of a few fourteenth-century armorers have come down to us, but substantial documentation begins only in the fifteenth century. The same holds true for the manufacture of sword blades, staff weapons, bows and crossbows, firearms, and ordinance (cannon founding), where famous names rarely appear before the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The modern concept of the individual artist begins to emerge only from the late fourteenth century onward, which may explain why, in the manufacture of arms and armor, cities and regions of origin often take precedence over the craftsman/artist.

Italy
By far the most important regions of armor production in Renaissance Europe were northern Italy and southern Germany, with workshops from both regions exporting their products throughout Europe. Probably the most dynamic center of armor manufacture during the fifteenth century was the Italian city of Milan, home to the earliest comparatively well-documented family of armorers, the Missaglias. This prominent family produced at least four known armorers—Tomaso (recorded 1430, died 1452), Antonio (recorded 1441, died 1496), Giovanni Angelo (recorded 1496–1529), and Damiano (recorded 1514)—and their workshop appears to have exported armor all over Europe. During the sixteenth century, Milan housed the workshop of the Missaglia descendant Filippo Negroli (ca. 1510–1579), who may be regarded as the most skilled, esteemed, and famous armorer of his age, perhaps of all time. Together with his relatives Francesco (ca. 1522–1600), Giovan Battista (ca. 1511–1591), Alessandro (ca. 1528–1573) and Giovan Paolo (ca. 1513–1569), the Negrolis produced sumptuously decorated parade armor for the Holy Roman Emperor, the dukes of Urbino, as well as the French and Spanish royal courts. At the same time, however, the urban and courtly workshops of Brescia and a number of southern German cities had successfully challenged Milan’s dominance".Unquote


It occurred to me that artwork showing some of the ancient armour and sword smiths would enhance the thread thus~
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Old 21st June 2017, 12:14 AM   #19
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Reference;
A. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453


Continued from #18 above with another Quote from http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/make/hd_make.htm


Quote"German-speaking Countries
Armor production in the German-speaking countries centered on several hubs: the imperial cities of Augsburg, Basel (Swiss after 1501), Landshut, and Nuremberg, as well as the court workshop of the Holy Roman Emperors in Innsbruck. All were famous for their plate armor, produced by renowned armorers or armorer families. In Augsburg, the Helmschmied family, with its most prominent members Lorenz (active 1467, died 1515), Kolman (1471–1532), and Desiderius (1513–1579) worked for the archdukes of Austria and Tyrol, the Holy Roman Emperor, and other wealthy clients. Equally prominent was the Seusenhofer family, particularly the brothers Konrad (active 1500, died 1517) and Hans (active 1514, died 1555), who in turn controlled the newly established imperial workshop at Innsbruck, producing armor for the emperor and his court. Wolf(gang) Großschedel (1517–1562) of Landshut received the patronage of King Philip II of Spain and his court. And in Nuremberg, Kunz Lochner (ca. 1510–1567) acquired an international reputation and included among his clients Emperor Charles V, the dukes of Saxony, and the kings of Poland.

In addition to the workshops of famous makers of plate armor, various cities specialized in certain types of production. Nuremberg had long earned a reputation for its mail armor and, moreover, in the later sixteenth century became a center for the production of wheel-lock firearms. Cologne was known for the manufacture of fine swords and mail armor from at least the twelfth century. The names of Passau and Solingen were synonymous with sword blades: the famous Passau “trademark”—a running wolf incised on the blade—signified such exceptional quality, that during the fifteenth century, Solingen blade smiths began to copy the mark and apply it to their own blades."Unquote.

See this famous armour below at https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/10/08/late-armor/ where it states Quote"In Germany in the early 16th century the armorers’ craft received strong encouragement from the informed patronage of Emperor MAXIMILIAN I. Among the famous makers who worked for Maximilian and his successors were the SEUSENHOFER FAMILY of Innsbruck and the HELMSCHMIED FAMILY of Augsburg".Unquote

On mention of fire arms here are some wheel locks which can be closer viewed at http://metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22378 and whereas these may be slightly late we shall be covering Medieval fire arms in some detail soon...
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Old 21st June 2017, 02:55 AM   #20
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The following is a web page worth reading . It balances the Medieval period with the the follow on Renaissance very expertly. Please see;

http://web.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/arms1.htm


and from which I Quote" Given this, one can no more understand the medieval world without having an understanding of weapons and armor than one can understand European intellectual development without ever having been exposed to Aristotle." Unquote.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 09:20 AM   #21
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I was intending to hold fire on Medieval Cannons and other gunpowder weapons but now is as good a time as any with my first detail being to point members to the brilliant work done by Michael (RIP) (Matchlock) whose attention to detail was unveiled in some magnificent treatise and excellent discussions on a subject he seemed to know as if they only appeared yesterday; such was his enthusiasm.

Reference. Just type into search or press on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/searc...searchid=860408

~ and simply chose from a myriad of different topics on the subject.


See also the two cannon below from http://www.medievalists.net/2009/08...powder-recipes/

See The seige of Orleans (pink fort)below from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpo...ege_orleans.jpg
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:14 AM   #22
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In support of this thread please have a quick look at http://deremilitari.org/2013/11/the...al-perspective/

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Old 25th June 2017, 03:28 PM   #23
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One Medieval weapon I know little about is The Bow and Arrow. I found an interesting read here at ~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

The report opens with Quote" The English longbow was a powerful medieval type of longbow (a tall bow for archery) about 6 ft (1.8 m) long used by the English and Welsh for hunting and as a weapon in medieval warfare. English use of longbows was effective against the French during the Hundred Years' War, particularly at the start of the war in the battles of Sluys (1340), Crécy (1346), and Poitiers (1356), and perhaps most famously at the Battle of Agincourt (1415).

They were less successful after this, with longbowmen having their lines broken at the Battle of Verneuil (1424), and being completely routed at the Battle of Patay (1429) when they were charged before they had set up their defensive position." Unquote.


It is an excellent report on The English Longbow...which to some is a bit of a misnomer since it tends to be associated with Welsh Bowmen... but interestingly if the Bow was Yew it presumeably came from France in ships carrying another fine French product...Port ! but I would not suppose it could be called a French Bow

The above reference on Range says Quote"
The range of the medieval weapon is not accurately known, with much depending on both the power of the bow and the type of arrow. It has been suggested that a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yd (370 m) but the longest mark shot at on the London practice ground of Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 345 yd (315 m).

In 1542, Henry VIII set a minimum practice range for adults using flight arrows of 220 yd (200 m); ranges below this had to be shot with heavy arrows. Modern experiments broadly concur with these historical ranges. A 667 N (150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.89 oz) arrow 328 m (359 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.38 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (273.3 yd). In 2012, Joe Gibbs shot a 2.25 oz (64 g) livery arrow 292 yd (267 m) with a 170 lbf yew bow. The effective combat range of longbowmen was generally lower than what could be achieved on the practice range as sustained shooting was tiring and the rigors of campaigning would sap soldiers' strength.

Writing 30 years after the Mary Rose sank, Barnabe Rich estimated that if 1000 English archers were mustered then after one week only 100 of them would be able to shoot farther than 200 paces, while 200 would not be able to shoot farther than 180 paces".Unquote

In a contemporary account it goes on to describe viz

by Gerald of Wales commenting on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century: One of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron chausses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.

Below The Battle of Crecy. and a Longbow illustrated at reference.
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Old 25th June 2017, 05:29 PM   #24
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Bow Ranges~

I was looking at a comparison in Bow ranges and comparing the English Longbow to others...including the Turkish Foot Bow...which I assume is called that because of the need to use your foot to press on the bow in order to apply sufficient force to bend it so as top apply the bowstring...The amazing range of the latter weapon was never tested against the English Bow but achieved far longer range distances and easily plus of 400 yards and refined with modern methods to nearly double that today...

See http://www.turkishculture.org/lifes...-554.htm?type=1

The detail whilst placed here for the Boffins out there is interesting not least in the peculiar shape of the Bows but also the aerodynamic type of Arrows used in the Turkish example...
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Old 25th June 2017, 05:49 PM   #25
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Please feel free to add any web or Library references....

For Example Crecy, Sluys and Azincourt were landslide victories for the English Archers but Formigny was a disaster caused by undefended archers positions being broken and over run causing a decisive rout. See https://www.thoughtco.com/hundred-y...ormigny-2360754

Below the English are routed at Formigny but at Sluys the rainstorm of English arrows destroyed the French crammed on board ships.
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Old 25th June 2017, 06:17 PM   #26
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I mentioned earlier the phenomenal Turkish Foot Bow and note that there is a video showing how to string it...indeed using the feet in a gymnastic piece of magic best viewed at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPs9zRASfU

and viewable on Forum Library at #26 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=Longbow
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Old Yesterday, 06:34 PM   #27
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PATAY 18 June 1429.

Patay was to the French what Agincourt was to the English. It turned into a disaster and a rout that claimed half the English Army through a mistake in the defences of the Longbow men. It was an almost reverse of Agincourt enabling the French heavy horse to utterly grind up the Archers who had only attained a half baked defence that the French Cavalry swept aside.

See http://www.longbow-archers.com/historypatay.html

From the above reference I Quote"The English position was therefore not fully consolidated by the time it was attacked. Protection offered by the terrain was minor and crucially for the longbow men there were no features that protected the flanks. All the basic ingredients of a well-protected position that had been so visibly present at Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt, were absent at Patay".Unquote.

See also https://www.thoughtco.com/aftermath...ars-war-1221904

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