A clay grenade

fernando · 5th June 2011, 06:09 PM

I have acquired this clay grenade over six months ago, but i was holding its posting with great hope to get a genuine plug+fuse, as they were missing in it when i purchased it.
Unfortunately things didn't function as originaly expected and i have now decided to make a plug+fuse myself. I basically detest replicas but, above all, i couldn't stand the view of the grenade without such completion, so i picked a piece of pine wood and some 10 cms. of lamp wick and made a modest approach to the real thing, as observed in post #16 of THIS THREAD by Matchlock.
I wouldn't go into repeating the details about these grenades origin, as a keen description may be read in post #31 of the abovementioned thread.
The specimen now posted, being unplugged, is naturally empty of its former powder filling. It has a 13,5 cms. diameter and weighs 2,680 Kgs.
I like the marks in it; wonder whether they are from the maker or an ID of its allocation.
As a sign of my symphaty for this thing, i will use it as my temporary avatar.

.

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2011, 08:16 PM

BANG, cool, I love the new avitar.

Atlantia · 5th June 2011, 08:41 PM

Very cool Nando,
It looks like an evil one eyed apple!

M ELEY · 7th June 2011, 12:38 AM

Awesome, Fernando, very nice addition to the collection! I've been wanting to pick one of these up for a long time now for my nautical collection (grenades and stink-pots being popular items for boarding, you know). I think you've done a "bang-up" job (

) on the fuse. Looks antique enough to fool the eye. I truly had to closely examine the pics to tell. Congratulations on a fine piece!

fernando · 7th June 2011, 01:59 PM

Thank you all guys.
It is possible that the plug/fuse doesn't completely follow the original trace, but i realized that, if i made it closer to real, it could impertinently light itself and blast the grenade, with the consequent damage to the forum, caused my avatar

.

Matchlock · 7th June 2011, 06:52 PM

Congratulations, 'Nando,

I just wanted to point out this link as your grenade doubtlessly is one of the Thirty Years War pieces dug up in Ingolstadt/Bavaria in the 1970's:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...des+ingolstadt

In my glass case, 2nd image from top, on the right hand you can see two original fuses, one of them cut in half to show the powder line inside.

Best,
Michl

fernando · 7th June 2011, 07:16 PM

Thank you Michl,
You might have not noticed, but i made a point in post #1 that i would not need to detail the origin of this grenade as the whole story was described in your thread, from which i posted the link, called 'THIS THREAD'

Best
'Nando

fernando · 12th April 2022, 10:23 AM

I later got one of these original fuses. I didn't replace the fake one with this example as it is very fragile.

.

Andi · 12th April 2022, 06:54 PM

Dear Fernando

This is the right decision to keep the original fuse in its protective box. I know this piece from our dear friend Matchlock. May he rest in peace.

By the way my wife Chris an I have just finished the data collection on the 501st complete Grenade from the cities Museum of Ingolstadt. Next year we will measure the pieces in the museums exhibition showcase and the fragments to complete the data evaluation on the entire find.

fernando · 13th April 2022, 09:46 AM

Good to know that you are following this subject, Andi

.

Raf · 13th April 2022, 03:35 PM

By grenade do we mean as in having an internal fuse. Presumably a wood plug with a hole in it filled with compressed meal designed to burn for a measured amount of time before exploding . Or an incendiary device as in Molotov cocktail. Having an external burning element, like a piece of tarry rope designed to set fire to the contents after the grenade shattered on impact . Quoting from a 1639 Tower of London inventory.

Powder Pots of earth.
Earthen bottels to be made in a round fashion ... half full of serpentine powder or somewhat more, there is also to be mixt with a quantity of Hoggs grease, Oyle of stone , Brimstone, saltpetre twice refined. Aqua vitae, pitch...

Sounds like the latter to me.

fernando · 13th April 2022, 04:51 PM

Maybe this PDF gives some further light to it ...

.

Raf · 13th April 2022, 05:17 PM

Yes. The sectioned example does look like what you would expect from a fused grenade with an explosive charge.

Andi · 13th April 2022, 07:10 PM

Helllo Raf

The source you quoted from the 1639 Inventory of the Tower of London is very interesting, can you please tell me where it is published?

Fernandos grenade, which comes from the Ingolstadt find is an explosive grenade- These grenades work through the fragments of the vessel parts shattered by the explosive charge they contain. In the more than 500 grenades examined so far, we have found no evidence that the black powder charge was mixed with other objects such as iron splinters, stones, flint pieces or the like.

The ones in the London inventory sound more like fire or lime pots (in German: Sturmtöpfe). Similar to a mordern molotov cocktail.
All this military fireworks is very interesting. Here is a link to our German webpage about such devices: https://www.bummsbrigade.de/index.ph...feuerwerk.html (unfortunately only a view pages are available in English so far)

Raf · 13th April 2022, 07:37 PM

Quoted by Chris Henry in English Civil war Artillery 1642-51 . Osprey publishing.

This extract from School of the art of Gunnery 1643 is relevant.

How to make Fuses.
Every Ball hath a hole, left to put in a Fuse or piece of wood just like a Faucet for a spigot, this hole must be one quarter the diameter of the woodden Fuse, which Fuse must be in length three quarters the height of the Granade, made taper, and when filled with composition driven gently in amongst the powder that is in the ball, leaving a lit∣tle of it without: the composition for this Fuse is made thus: take one pound of Pow∣der, foure ounces of Salt-peeter, and one of Brimstone, first beaten to powder, and sif∣ted in a serce severally; these ingredients being mixed together, your composition is made fit for use.

fernando · 13th April 2022, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi;271133...[url

https://www.bummsbrigade.de/index.php/de/zeug/feuerwerk.html[/url] (unfortunately only a view pages are available in English so far)

Now the whole page automatically translated to Portuguese

. I like the pitch garlands; i have one of those

.

Raf · 13th April 2022, 08:08 PM

So you will like this then. From the art of gunnery again

How to make fiery Wheels, to be cast with mens hands.

Because every souldier wil not meddle with hand Granadoes, the using of them being somwhat dangerous, I will here teach another kinde of Fire-works which is little lesse offensive, for the making thereof, you are to use these ingredients: Take four pound of Gunpowder in dust, one pound of Charcole dust, two pound of Tar, two of Salt-peeter, and one pound of Ro∣sin; all these ingredients being well incorpo∣rated, and heat over the fire, steep tow or flax in the same, and then wrap the tow, and flax about a hoop, and then cover all this a∣gain with Gunpowder dust; and in time of need give fire to them, & cast them amongst your enemies, this is to be observed, that the hoops ought not to be too large, but falling upon a many souldiers they may there stay and stick, and •o make them more trouble∣some, and entangling, two of them may be tyed a-crosse one another; and then falling upon any man he cannot choose but be much astonished, with such a fearfull element, and put his company in great disorder.

Andi · 13th April 2022, 08:40 PM

Fernando, I envy you your collection!

it sounds that The School of the art of Gunnery 1643 perfectly corresponds to German works.

12th April 2022, 10:23 AM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	I later got one of these original fuses. I didn't replace the fake one with this example as it is very fragile. . Attached Images

5th June 2011, 06:09 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	A clay grenade I have acquired this clay grenade over six months ago, but i was holding its posting with great hope to get a genuine plug+fuse, as they were missing in it when i purchased it. Unfortunately things didn't function as originaly expected and i have now decided to make a plug+fuse myself. I basically detest replicas but, above all, i couldn't stand the view of the grenade without such completion, so i picked a piece of pine wood and some 10 cms. of lamp wick and made a modest approach to the real thing, as observed in post #16 of THIS THREAD by Matchlock. I wouldn't go into repeating the details about these grenades origin, as a keen description may be read in post #31 of the abovementioned thread. The specimen now posted, being unplugged, is naturally empty of its former powder filling. It has a 13,5 cms. diameter and weighs 2,680 Kgs. I like the marks in it; wonder whether they are from the maker or an ID of its allocation. As a sign of my symphaty for this thing, i will use it as my temporary avatar. . Attached Images

5th June 2011, 08:16 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	BANG, cool, I love the new avitar.

5th June 2011, 08:41 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Very cool Nando, It looks like an evil one eyed apple!

7th June 2011, 12:38 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Awesome, Fernando, very nice addition to the collection! I've been wanting to pick one of these up for a long time now for my nautical collection (grenades and stink-pots being popular items for boarding, you know). I think you've done a "bang-up" job ( ) on the fuse. Looks antique enough to fool the eye. I truly had to closely examine the pics to tell. Congratulations on a fine piece!

7th June 2011, 01:59 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thank you all guys. It is possible that the plug/fuse doesn't completely follow the original trace, but i realized that, if i made it closer to real, it could impertinently light itself and blast the grenade, with the consequent damage to the forum, caused my avatar .

7th June 2011, 06:52 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Congratulations, 'Nando, I just wanted to point out this link as your grenade doubtlessly is one of the Thirty Years War pieces dug up in Ingolstadt/Bavaria in the 1970's: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...des+ingolstadt In my glass case, 2nd image from top, on the right hand you can see two original fuses, one of them cut in half to show the powder line inside. Best, Michl

7th June 2011, 07:16 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thank you Michl, You might have not noticed, but i made a point in post #1 that i would not need to detail the origin of this grenade as the whole story was described in your thread, from which i posted the link, called 'THIS THREAD' Best 'Nando

12th April 2022, 06:54 PM	#9
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 202	Dear Fernando This is the right decision to keep the original fuse in its protective box. I know this piece from our dear friend Matchlock. May he rest in peace. By the way my wife Chris an I have just finished the data collection on the 501st complete Grenade from the cities Museum of Ingolstadt. Next year we will measure the pieces in the museums exhibition showcase and the fragments to complete the data evaluation on the entire find.

13th April 2022, 09:46 AM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Good to know that you are following this subject, Andi .

13th April 2022, 03:35 PM	#11
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	By grenade do we mean as in having an internal fuse. Presumably a wood plug with a hole in it filled with compressed meal designed to burn for a measured amount of time before exploding . Or an incendiary device as in Molotov cocktail. Having an external burning element, like a piece of tarry rope designed to set fire to the contents after the grenade shattered on impact . Quoting from a 1639 Tower of London inventory. Powder Pots of earth. Earthen bottels to be made in a round fashion ... half full of serpentine powder or somewhat more, there is also to be mixt with a quantity of Hoggs grease, Oyle of stone , Brimstone, saltpetre twice refined. Aqua vitae, pitch... Sounds like the latter to me.

13th April 2022, 05:17 PM	#13
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	Yes. The sectioned example does look like what you would expect from a fused grenade with an explosive charge.

13th April 2022, 07:10 PM	#14
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 202	Helllo Raf The source you quoted from the 1639 Inventory of the Tower of London is very interesting, can you please tell me where it is published? Fernandos grenade, which comes from the Ingolstadt find is an explosive grenade- These grenades work through the fragments of the vessel parts shattered by the explosive charge they contain. In the more than 500 grenades examined so far, we have found no evidence that the black powder charge was mixed with other objects such as iron splinters, stones, flint pieces or the like. The ones in the London inventory sound more like fire or lime pots (in German: Sturmtöpfe). Similar to a mordern molotov cocktail. All this military fireworks is very interesting. Here is a link to our German webpage about such devices: https://www.bummsbrigade.de/index.ph...feuerwerk.html (unfortunately only a view pages are available in English so far)

13th April 2022, 07:37 PM	#15
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	Quoted by Chris Henry in English Civil war Artillery 1642-51 . Osprey publishing. This extract from School of the art of Gunnery 1643 is relevant. How to make Fuses. Every Ball hath a hole, left to put in a Fuse or piece of wood just like a Faucet for a spigot, this hole must be one quarter the diameter of the woodden Fuse, which Fuse must be in length three quarters the height of the Granade, made taper, and when filled with composition driven gently in amongst the powder that is in the ball, leaving a lit∣tle of it without: the composition for this Fuse is made thus: take one pound of Pow∣der, foure ounces of Salt-peeter, and one of Brimstone, first beaten to powder, and sif∣ted in a serce severally; these ingredients being mixed together, your composition is made fit for use.

13th April 2022, 08:08 PM	#17
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	So you will like this then. From the art of gunnery again How to make fiery Wheels, to be cast with mens hands. Because every souldier wil not meddle with hand Granadoes, the using of them being somwhat dangerous, I will here teach another kinde of Fire-works which is little lesse offensive, for the making thereof, you are to use these ingredients: Take four pound of Gunpowder in dust, one pound of Charcole dust, two pound of Tar, two of Salt-peeter, and one pound of Ro∣sin; all these ingredients being well incorpo∣rated, and heat over the fire, steep tow or flax in the same, and then wrap the tow, and flax about a hoop, and then cover all this a∣gain with Gunpowder dust; and in time of need give fire to them, & cast them amongst your enemies, this is to be observed, that the hoops ought not to be too large, but falling upon a many souldiers they may there stay and stick, and •o make them more trouble∣some, and entangling, two of them may be tyed a-crosse one another; and then falling upon any man he cannot choose but be much astonished, with such a fearfull element, and put his company in great disorder.

13th April 2022, 08:40 PM	#18
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 202	Fernando, I envy you your collection! it sounds that The School of the art of Gunnery 1643 perfectly corresponds to German works.