English Sea Service Pistol?

JamesKelly · 24th March 2016, 01:07 AM

NeilUK it is embarrassing to say, but though my library catalog says I have this DeWitt Bailey book I cannot find it tonight. Neither can I locate my rather expensive copy of R. Brooker's work 1603 - 1888 pistols. Hopefully they are in the attic with a few other books I've not seen since my last move. Thank you for the references, now I must find them somewhere in storage. Somewhere.

With respect to the sear spring screw, it exists but is hidden by the cock. On Brown Bess muskets, for example, that long sear spring was used in the pattern 1756 lock. The pattern 1777 lock (terminology from Goldstein & Mowbray, The Brown Bess) used the shorter sear spring, and the screw does show in the lockplate behind the cock.

With respect to being a cut-down musket, they would have had to turn the breech smaller in diameter, while retaining the same design of rings on it. The pistol might be something inexpensive for prison guards, but I cannot see how it could be cut down from anything. I still guess at 1794, given the "94" stampings on sideplate and stock, as well as the short 230mm (9" to those less fond of that French system) barrel.

This pistol is keeping me busier than I had anticipated.

Pukka Bundook · 24th March 2016, 02:27 AM

Just to confirm James' post above, the long scear spring was used in English locks until roughly 1765, then replaced by the shorter style.

This is just a generalization, as there was no immediate change over.

Having said that, the faceted pan is not seen usually on English locks and I still think the lock in question has a Germanic look to it, But, Germanic locks often had the pan screwed to the plate & a screw showed on the lock face between the breast of the cock and the pan.
We see no evidence of this on the lock in question.

Such screws can be seen above in poste 5 & 11.

Best regards,
Richard.

M ELEY · 24th March 2016, 04:11 AM

Gilkerson's "Boarders Away II" is an excellent resource for sea service pistols as well. Every naval enthusiast should have a copy.

Cathey · 25th March 2016, 03:31 AM

Hi Guys

I agree that the pistol featured in this post is not a sea service. We have three of the long Sea Service pistols in our collection and they are very distinctive in design. The one I have included in this post is Circa 1800.

Dimensions: Overall 49.2 cm, 19.6 inches, Barrel 30.7 cm, 12 inches
Marks, etc.: George III cypher over "TOWER.", The stock behind the lock appears to be branded "1800" under a crown. There are additional issues stamps in the stock and under the ram rod including TP 4 GR. Belt hook has crown & 7.

Description
Sea service pistol with lock bearing the standard George III cypher over "TOWER." The .56-caliber barrel is 12" and marked at the breech with government view and proof stamps. The stock behind the lock appears to be branded "1800" under a crown. There are additional issues stamps in the stock and under the ram rod including TP 4 GR. The later style lock and a thicker stock immediately distinguish this early 19th-century pistol from the earlier 18th-century examples. Again, the overall length is 19" and it has a steel belt hook.

General Remarks
This basic form was adopted by the British Navy as its Patterns 1756. This example is Pattern 1756/1777 having an improved lock added at the later date (that is two screw ends visible behind the cock and no date below “TOWER” on the tail), plus a new rounded pan. The basic characteristics however remain the same as the original 1718 version of this design: a 12” pinned barrel (0.56 calibre); a flat lock with a ring cock; a narrow pan (no fence); the absence of both bridles; a single cast rammer pipe (wooden rod); the land service-type hazelnut trigger guard that adds a rear spur in the bow; a walnut stock providing beaver-tail carving at the barrel tang; a simple butt cap; and no nose band. A hole visible in the typical flat side plate tail anchored a stud on the belt hook’s base – held, in turn, by a lengthened rear side plate screw. A top screw secures the barrel tang; there is not trigger plate. Tower proofs are struck into the breach, while both “TOWER” and “crown/GR/broad arrow” are on the lock. These plain but sturdy pistols were often thrown or used as clubs after firing during close deck action.

References:
GILKERSON, William BOARDERS AWAY II: FIREARMS OF THE AGE OF FIGHTING SAIL pp248
HAWKINS, Peter THE PRICE GUIDE TO ANTIQUE GUNS & PISTOLS Pp238
MILLER, Martin THE COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO FIREARMS Pp92-93
NEUMANN, George G. BATTLE WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION Pp249
WILKINSON, Frederick SMALL ARMS 256p

Cheers Cathey and Rex

25th March 2016, 03:31 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	LONG SEA SERVICE PISTOL Hi Guys I agree that the pistol featured in this post is not a sea service. We have three of the long Sea Service pistols in our collection and they are very distinctive in design. The one I have included in this post is Circa 1800. Dimensions: Overall 49.2 cm, 19.6 inches, Barrel 30.7 cm, 12 inches Marks, etc.: George III cypher over "TOWER.", The stock behind the lock appears to be branded "1800" under a crown. There are additional issues stamps in the stock and under the ram rod including TP 4 GR. Belt hook has crown & 7. Description Sea service pistol with lock bearing the standard George III cypher over "TOWER." The .56-caliber barrel is 12" and marked at the breech with government view and proof stamps. The stock behind the lock appears to be branded "1800" under a crown. There are additional issues stamps in the stock and under the ram rod including TP 4 GR. The later style lock and a thicker stock immediately distinguish this early 19th-century pistol from the earlier 18th-century examples. Again, the overall length is 19" and it has a steel belt hook. General Remarks This basic form was adopted by the British Navy as its Patterns 1756. This example is Pattern 1756/1777 having an improved lock added at the later date (that is two screw ends visible behind the cock and no date below “TOWER” on the tail), plus a new rounded pan. The basic characteristics however remain the same as the original 1718 version of this design: a 12” pinned barrel (0.56 calibre); a flat lock with a ring cock; a narrow pan (no fence); the absence of both bridles; a single cast rammer pipe (wooden rod); the land service-type hazelnut trigger guard that adds a rear spur in the bow; a walnut stock providing beaver-tail carving at the barrel tang; a simple butt cap; and no nose band. A hole visible in the typical flat side plate tail anchored a stud on the belt hook’s base – held, in turn, by a lengthened rear side plate screw. A top screw secures the barrel tang; there is not trigger plate. Tower proofs are struck into the breach, while both “TOWER” and “crown/GR/broad arrow” are on the lock. These plain but sturdy pistols were often thrown or used as clubs after firing during close deck action. References: GILKERSON, William BOARDERS AWAY II: FIREARMS OF THE AGE OF FIGHTING SAIL pp248 HAWKINS, Peter THE PRICE GUIDE TO ANTIQUE GUNS & PISTOLS Pp238 MILLER, Martin THE COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO FIREARMS Pp92-93 NEUMANN, George G. BATTLE WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION Pp249 WILKINSON, Frederick SMALL ARMS 256p Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

24th March 2016, 01:07 AM	#1
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	NeilUK it is embarrassing to say, but though my library catalog says I have this DeWitt Bailey book I cannot find it tonight. Neither can I locate my rather expensive copy of R. Brooker's work 1603 - 1888 pistols. Hopefully they are in the attic with a few other books I've not seen since my last move. Thank you for the references, now I must find them somewhere in storage. Somewhere. With respect to the sear spring screw, it exists but is hidden by the cock. On Brown Bess muskets, for example, that long sear spring was used in the pattern 1756 lock. The pattern 1777 lock (terminology from Goldstein & Mowbray, The Brown Bess) used the shorter sear spring, and the screw does show in the lockplate behind the cock. With respect to being a cut-down musket, they would have had to turn the breech smaller in diameter, while retaining the same design of rings on it. The pistol might be something inexpensive for prison guards, but I cannot see how it could be cut down from anything. I still guess at 1794, given the "94" stampings on sideplate and stock, as well as the short 230mm (9" to those less fond of that French system) barrel. This pistol is keeping me busier than I had anticipated.

24th March 2016, 02:27 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Just to confirm James' post above, the long scear spring was used in English locks until roughly 1765, then replaced by the shorter style. This is just a generalization, as there was no immediate change over. Having said that, the faceted pan is not seen usually on English locks and I still think the lock in question has a Germanic look to it, But, Germanic locks often had the pan screwed to the plate & a screw showed on the lock face between the breast of the cock and the pan. We see no evidence of this on the lock in question. Such screws can be seen above in poste 5 & 11. Best regards, Richard.

24th March 2016, 04:11 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Gilkerson's "Boarders Away II" is an excellent resource for sea service pistols as well. Every naval enthusiast should have a copy.