Keris for comment

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 11:21 AM

I find the form of this Keris very pleasing. Hopefully you can all tell me more about it:

Sajen · 24th June 2012, 05:35 PM

Seems to be a East Java or Madura keris with pamor adeg. How is the fit inside the sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Seems to be a East Java or Madura keris with pamor adeg. How is the fit inside the sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
LOL, not a good fit in the sheath. How did you know?
I've not seen this shape grip or type of pamor before, are they unsual?
The pamor is like a river and the grip is like a sheeps head!

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 06:19 PM

Well Detlef knows alot

Anyway, since he is away, the sheath is Central Javanese style which might give an early indication that it might be latter fitted. Nice keris regardless. Other member might be able to elaborate further.

Sajen · 24th June 2012, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Well Detlef knows alot

Lol, not enough!!

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Lol, not enough!!

Oh, come on...

Sajen · 24th June 2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
LOL, not a good fit in the sheath. How did you know?
I've not seen this shape grip or type of pamor before, are they unsual?
The pamor is like a river and the grip is like a sheeps head!

Best
Gene

Hi Gene,

hilt is donoriko type from Madura, sheath like Chandra write is Central Java, by the blade I am unsure but think East Java.

Both are not uncommon to answer your question.

Like Chandra I think that others will be able to tell you more.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

hilt is donoriko type from Madura, sheath like Chandra write is Central Java, by the blade I am unsure but think East Java.

Both are not uncommon to answer your question.

Like Chandra I think that others will be able to tell you more.

Regards,

Detlef

Oh well, not uncommon but pleasing to the eye and hand too.

Thanks Detlef.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Well Detlef knows alot

Anyway, since he is away, the sheath is Central Javanese style which might give an early indication that it might be latter fitted. Nice keris regardless. Other member might be able to elaborate further.

Thanks Tunggulametung

Best
Gene

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 11:28 PM

I'm in agreement with what has already been said, but I'll add this:- we would name this pamor as adeg sapu (standing broom), and this one is one of the better ones I've seen, its well executed and well preserved, a nice keris.
The mendak is Madura, the hilt is unusual in its simplicity, the wrongko is a terusan (one piece).

All in all this is a very nice bit of gear.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm in agreement with what has already been said, but I'll add this:- we would name this pamor as adeg sapu (standing broom), and this one is one of the better ones I've seen, its well executed and well preserved, a nice keris.
The mendak is Madura, the hilt is unusual in its simplicity, the wrongko is a terusan (one piece).

All in all this is a very nice bit of gear.

HI Alan,

Thanks for the help glad you like it. I've got to ask, why 'standing broom'?

Best
Gene

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 12:11 AM

Gene, here is a photo of a Javanese --- or I guess Indonesian --- sapu lidhi:- a broom made from the rib of a coconut leaf.

Using your artistic eye, can you see a similarity between the coconut ribs that form the broom and the strips of pamor in the keris?

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gene, here is a photo of a Javanese --- or I guess Indonesian --- sapu lidhi:- a broom made from the rib of a coconut leaf.

Using your artistic eye, can you see a similarity between the coconut ribs that form the broom and the strips of pamor in the keris?

LOL!! I must admit that I assumed such a well executed pattern would have a 'deeper' significance that that.

I do see what you mean though.

Rick · 25th June 2012, 12:25 AM

Brooms clean ...

I want that .

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Brooms clean ...

I want that .

You like the Keris then?

Rick · 25th June 2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

You like the Keris then?

Well .. kinda .

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Well .. kinda .

LOL! Tough crowd!

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 02:01 AM

Actually if you translate all those exotic strange sounding Javanese keris words they are all very, very ordinary things. Javanese art draws on the world around us for its motifs and the names thereof.

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 06:07 PM

Thanks Alan,

Is there any way to date a keris like this?

Best
Gene

David · 25th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL! Tough crowd!

Well Gene, i more than kinda like it...

Love this hilt btw. Simply and elegant.

Would love to see the blade in proper stain...

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Gene, i more than kinda like it...

Love this hilt btw. Simply and elegant.

Would love to see the blade in proper stain...

Thanks David,

I love the hilt, beautifully flowing and organic.
I thought the level of stain was ok, would it have been much darker originally?

Best
Gene

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 11:49 PM

Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time.

A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum.

Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend.

It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do.

It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.

Jean · 26th June 2012, 01:55 PM

Attached are the pictures of another kris blade with pamor Adeg Sapu from my collection. The blade was recently cleaned in Solo and is probably not as old as estimated by Alan for Gene's blade.
Best regards

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time.

A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum.

Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend.

It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do.

It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.

Hi Alan,

Excellent information thank you very much.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Attached are the pictures of another kris blade with pamor Adeg Sapu from my collection. The blade was recently cleaned in Solo and is probably not as old as estimated by Alan for Gene's blade.
Best regards

Hi Jean,
Thank you, it's nice to see how mine would look with a restain. Thats a fine looking Keris you have there.

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 26th June 2012, 03:16 PM

Gene, I vote to not stain this particular blade (some will agree, some will not)--or generally old hopefully antique pieces/with nice patina, just a light coat of oil. The other day I oil my garden bench and all of the sudden it looks totally new and I missed all that old charm

. Oil and staining if you go that route has been discussed several times on this kerispedia.

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Gene, I vote to not stain this particular blade (some will agree, some will not)--or generally old hopefully antique pieces/with nice patina, just a light coat of oil. The other day I oil my garden bench and all of the sudden it looks totally new and I missed all that old charm

. Oil and staining if you go that route has been discussed several times on this kerispedia.

Thank you. I like it as it is too

I'm going to take some more pictures of another Keris with burl wood fittings if you are online in about 10 minuites?

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2012, 10:44 PM

Gene, I also would probably not restain this keris. Generally the inclination of most collectors is to try to bring a keris to a premium condition of stain, but unless one has access to a first class m'ranggi, or possesses the knowledge and skill to do a first class job himself, it is probably not a good idea to restain a blade when it still has a more or less acceptable appearance.

It takes a lot of practice to be able to do a good stain job, and the option of sending a blade to Indonesia for staining is in my opinion not really an option at all, because what you get is a very inferior commercial job that often leaves the blade looking worse than it did before the job was done. Its cheap enough, certainly, but you get what you pay for.

It is possible for a really good stain job to take a skilled m'ranggi two or three days to do, and I'm talking working time, not expired time. However, to get access to the people who work at this high-class level is not easy and you probably need to be a part of a local keris community to know who to approach.

Loedjoe · 27th June 2012, 04:43 PM

I acquired this some month ago, and on seeing Atlantia's (much better) one was struck by the similarity of the pamor. Would this also be adeg sapu?
It seemed to me that the rather crude hilt on mine may be a recent replacement. Comments from the experts would be welcome.

tunggulametung · 27th June 2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loedjoe

I acquired this some month ago, and on seeing Atlantia's (much better) one was struck by the similarity of the pamor. Would this also be adeg sapu?
It seemed to me that the rather crude hilt on mine may be a recent replacement. Comments from the experts would be welcome.

Yes, I would call this pamor adeg sapu. Similar to this but much finer lines were called adeg mrambut (rambut=hair).
Not an expert here but I think the hilt is original to the blade (the only hilt the blade has ever been fitted) or at least has been with the blade long enough. The simple hilt (without details) is common to East Java region. Hilt cup is also regionally correct. I notice (human?) hair on the pesi, this is an old practice. Hilt orientation is normally (traditionally) perpendicular with the blade (should be twisted 90 degrees clockwise) but this can be personal preference. Simple but handsome old keris. Congratulations!

24th June 2012, 11:21 AM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Keris for comment I find the form of this Keris very pleasing. Hopefully you can all tell me more about it: Attached Images

25th June 2012, 12:11 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Gene, here is a photo of a Javanese --- or I guess Indonesian --- sapu lidhi:- a broom made from the rib of a coconut leaf. Using your artistic eye, can you see a similarity between the coconut ribs that form the broom and the strips of pamor in the keris? Attached Images

26th June 2012, 01:55 PM	#23
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Attached are the pictures of another kris blade with pamor Adeg Sapu from my collection. The blade was recently cleaned in Solo and is probably not as old as estimated by Alan for Gene's blade. Best regards Attached Images

27th June 2012, 04:43 PM	#29
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	I acquired this some month ago, and on seeing Atlantia's (much better) one was struck by the similarity of the pamor. Would this also be adeg sapu? It seemed to me that the rather crude hilt on mine may be a recent replacement. Comments from the experts would be welcome. Attached Images

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24th June 2012, 05:35 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,466	Seems to be a East Java or Madura keris with pamor adeg. How is the fit inside the sheath? Regards, Detlef

24th June 2012, 06:19 PM	#4
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Well Detlef knows alot Anyway, since he is away, the sheath is Central Javanese style which might give an early indication that it might be latter fitted. Nice keris regardless. Other member might be able to elaborate further.

24th June 2012, 11:28 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I'm in agreement with what has already been said, but I'll add this:- we would name this pamor as adeg sapu (standing broom), and this one is one of the better ones I've seen, its well executed and well preserved, a nice keris. The mendak is Madura, the hilt is unusual in its simplicity, the wrongko is a terusan (one piece). All in all this is a very nice bit of gear.

25th June 2012, 12:25 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Brooms clean ... I want that .

25th June 2012, 02:01 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Actually if you translate all those exotic strange sounding Javanese keris words they are all very, very ordinary things. Javanese art draws on the world around us for its motifs and the names thereof.

25th June 2012, 06:07 PM	#19
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks Alan, Is there any way to date a keris like this? Best Gene

25th June 2012, 11:49 PM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time. A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum. Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend. It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do. It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.

26th June 2012, 03:16 PM	#26
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Gene, I vote to not stain this particular blade (some will agree, some will not)--or generally old hopefully antique pieces/with nice patina, just a light coat of oil. The other day I oil my garden bench and all of the sudden it looks totally new and I missed all that old charm . Oil and staining if you go that route has been discussed several times on this kerispedia.

26th June 2012, 10:44 PM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Gene, I also would probably not restain this keris. Generally the inclination of most collectors is to try to bring a keris to a premium condition of stain, but unless one has access to a first class m'ranggi, or possesses the knowledge and skill to do a first class job himself, it is probably not a good idea to restain a blade when it still has a more or less acceptable appearance. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do a good stain job, and the option of sending a blade to Indonesia for staining is in my opinion not really an option at all, because what you get is a very inferior commercial job that often leaves the blade looking worse than it did before the job was done. Its cheap enough, certainly, but you get what you pay for. It is possible for a really good stain job to take a skilled m'ranggi two or three days to do, and I'm talking working time, not expired time. However, to get access to the people who work at this high-class level is not easy and you probably need to be a part of a local keris community to know who to approach.