Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

Norman McCormick · 10th July 2019, 05:29 PM

Hi Jim, Fernando,
This previous discussion may have some relevance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bulldog. The calibre is most likely the now defunct 44 American S&W or the equally obsolete 442/44 Webley.

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 10th July 2019, 06:37 PM

Good shot Norman

.

What i read in the time ...
Most likely, the Colt Double Action revolver of 1877 was a response to the introduction of the Webley Bulldog pistol in 1872, which was already being imported into the U.S. by late 1873... It was well received in the U.S. because it was well made, reliable, concealable, and relatively cheap compared to a Colt or a Smith & Wesson, plus it was “self-cocking, ...In January of 1877 Colt’s offered their .38 S.A. for $15. For that money you could buy three Webley Bulldog revolvers.
And down below, the same article/author that hailed the Webley quality & reliability ...
The quality of manufacture of the Colt was far beyond that of the Webley, and indeed was better than that of most other guns made anywhere in the world at the time.
My question: how can you trust what you read ?

.
On the other hand, judging by what we read out there, it appears that all gun men had pistols of all sorts

.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2019, 04:29 AM

Excellent entry Norman, thank you!!!

OK Fernando, that makes sense, and you're right, the 'rig' wouldn't be on his left hip unless the butt was forward for cross draw if he was right handed..which he was.

There seem to be varying accounts of what guns Billy used, but that tintype photo, being the only generally accepted image of him with the rifle and Colt Army revolver seem to have secured those as 'his'.
What became of them after his surrender is unclear, and he of course took several guns from the Lincoln County courthouse in his escape. Could his Colt M1873 Army revolver and 1873 Winchester have been retrieved by him? Did he keep the shotgun he used to kill deputy Bob Olinger and the revolver of deputy James Bell which he shot him with?

So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880. Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems.

Again, the Colt 'thunderer' notion is understandable, it seems these were known to be used by a number of gunfighters, but in many cases as 'hide out' guns. I think the 'tale' of it being Billy's favorite is most likely pulp fiction lore and marketers hype as suggested.

As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns, and writers tried to sensationalize particular types as their favorites to satisfy the public fascination with these figures. Hickok is best known for his pair of M1851 Navy revolvers, but had an array of others including the BULLDOG

Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral.

fernando · 11th July 2019, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880...

Not impossible ... as often such 'props' were used to 'compose' the picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town.
Again, all we have are assumptions it seems...

This drives us to also assume that, the 'other' picture where he is said to figure (in the left), one taken in the summer of 1878, makes sense ... and in this one he appears in a right handed pose

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns,..

I like the term 'pistoleer'; same as in my lingo (pistoleiro).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral...

For the reasons already exposed, while is a risk to 'swear' what he was carrying, i have a strong guess that certainly not such 'wall gun' like a 'Buntline' ... more adequate to keep in his house armoire.

.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2019, 05:38 PM

Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts.
While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best.

It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has.

Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner.
'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole.

With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist".
The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'.
Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it .

With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED.
The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'.

The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use.
Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.

fernando · 13th July 2019, 02:09 PM

While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are.

On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty

.

They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks,
The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock.
So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel

.

.

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2019, 10:07 PM

AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...…..
The DERRINGER Buntline!!!!

Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm!

13th July 2019, 02:09 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Naming things ... While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are. On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty . They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks, The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock. So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel . . Attached Images

14th July 2019, 10:07 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...….. The DERRINGER Buntline!!!! Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm! Attached Images

10th July 2019, 05:29 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Jim, Fernando, This previous discussion may have some relevance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bulldog. The calibre is most likely the now defunct 44 American S&W or the equally obsolete 442/44 Webley. My Regards, Norman.

10th July 2019, 06:37 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Good shot Norman . What i read in the time ... Most likely, the Colt Double Action revolver of 1877 was a response to the introduction of the Webley Bulldog pistol in 1872, which was already being imported into the U.S. by late 1873... It was well received in the U.S. because it was well made, reliable, concealable, and relatively cheap compared to a Colt or a Smith & Wesson, plus it was “self-cocking, ...In January of 1877 Colt’s offered their .38 S.A. for $15. For that money you could buy three Webley Bulldog revolvers. And down below, the same article/author that hailed the Webley quality & reliability ... The quality of manufacture of the Colt was far beyond that of the Webley, and indeed was better than that of most other guns made anywhere in the world at the time. My question: how can you trust what you read ? . On the other hand, judging by what we read out there, it appears that all gun men had pistols of all sorts .

11th July 2019, 04:29 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Excellent entry Norman, thank you!!! OK Fernando, that makes sense, and you're right, the 'rig' wouldn't be on his left hip unless the butt was forward for cross draw if he was right handed..which he was. There seem to be varying accounts of what guns Billy used, but that tintype photo, being the only generally accepted image of him with the rifle and Colt Army revolver seem to have secured those as 'his'. What became of them after his surrender is unclear, and he of course took several guns from the Lincoln County courthouse in his escape. Could his Colt M1873 Army revolver and 1873 Winchester have been retrieved by him? Did he keep the shotgun he used to kill deputy Bob Olinger and the revolver of deputy James Bell which he shot him with? So, were the guns in the tintype of Billy actually HIS weapons? or were they provided by the itinerant photographer who made the tintype in 1880. Billy's girl insisted that he never dressed that way around town, only when he was 'out on the range'. He was more neatly dressed around town. Again, all we have are assumptions it seems. Again, the Colt 'thunderer' notion is understandable, it seems these were known to be used by a number of gunfighters, but in many cases as 'hide out' guns. I think the 'tale' of it being Billy's favorite is most likely pulp fiction lore and marketers hype as suggested. As noted, persons who were known 'pistoleers' naturally had numerous guns, and writers tried to sensationalize particular types as their favorites to satisfy the public fascination with these figures. Hickok is best known for his pair of M1851 Navy revolvers, but had an array of others including the BULLDOG Wyatt Earp has always been known for the legendary 'Buntline Special' Colt .45 with foot long barrel....but in reality carried a Smith & Wesson ( in his coat pocket!) at the OK Corral.

11th July 2019, 05:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts. While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best. It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has. Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner. 'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole. With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist". The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'. Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it . With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED. The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'. The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use. Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.