Sumatran pedang for comment.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.

[Athanase]

"Kai : - I reckon the darker grip part wasn't painted (braided wire work partly missing)? Do you have any examples of the typical Palembang lacquer work? How does this painted pommel compare with the former?"


Yes it misses a part of the wire (2 wires of iron / silver? / other ?? twisted).
Yes only the part under the "flower" is paint, not the floral motif.
Sheath doesn't seem painted but rather covered with a colored varnish. The wood itself seems naturally already a little colored.

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by Gustav

A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

Hello Gustav,
I don't understand this sentence what do you mean by "Odo2" ??

Originally Posted by Gustav

The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.

Sorry but I don't understand what point of view you want for the picture. Profile? The profile, the view of the face of the cutting edge?

[kai]

Hello Séverin,

Originally Posted by Gustav

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

Gustav's keris has a ridge (ada-ada) along the center of the blade - because of this design, the dots are along the sides only...

Regards,
Kai

[Athanase]

Hello,
I did the photos but I left in Italy (Rome) in a few hours I did not have time to transfer them to the computer, cut out, and resize to post them.
I will post them Tuesday night.

[Athanase]

With one week late, the pictures :

[Sajen]

Hello Séverin,

what a beauty! Can you post pictures in this quality from the whole sword?

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

Séverin,

thank you for the pictures.

I attach two pictures of a Palembang Keris. They show the typical "thick" Greneng and Jenggot, the edge loosing its sharpness just before Ri Pandan (that's why we more often see a complete Greneng surviving on Palembang Keris) and the Udan Mas-like Pamor treatment.

The Jenggot on you Pedang also is "thick" - till now I haven't see a Sundanese or Cirebon or Javanese Keris with this feature, and my main interest is Keris.
Maybe we could encounter this feature on a Pedang from Sunda - I don't know.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai

Hullo everybody,

Apologies for the late response.
I was unaware until alerted to this post.

My cursory guesstimate:
Pedang Toebles (cut-thrust).
Blade: made according to eastern Soenda (Galoeh) protocol.
Handle: stylised (vegetal) Makara/Naga-Paksi.
Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.
Probably late-18thC. - early-19thC Tjaroeban/Tjirebon.
Hope this helps.

Best,

[kai]

Hullo AM,

Thanks for your comments!

Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.

However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.

I am not 100% sure (but quite sure) the Pedang has it, to be sure a pic exactly of this feature is needed.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.

Interesting thought!

Regards,
Kai

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by kai

Hullo AM,

Thanks for your comments!



However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai

Hullo Kai,

The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such. There is always the possibility that some people may have designed the pamor themselves.
Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC. Thus began 'pan-Djawa-ism' (the Tjaroeban/Tjirebon court became very much Djawa-oriented ; also Banten, but to a lesser degree; this is still so today). This was the time that Mataram awarded kerises as 'medals',resulting in greater creativity in keris-making and pamor-design.

To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period. The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.

Best,

[kai]

Hullo AM,

Thanks for your response!

The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such.

Yup, I reckon that's the usual approach from a client's perspective.

Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC.

Seems the same influence can be seen in southern Sumatra, too...

To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period.

Do you possibly have any Sunda examples with complex pamor from these earlier periods including Majapahit that you could kindly share? These seem to be very rare, indeed!

The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.

This seems to be a general trend throughout the archipelago (certainly with exceptions and different time-frames). Is it possible to delimit any corresponding periods for western Java?

BTW, any chance that the relatively early availability of European steel contributed to this? Any indications that there developed a split between "tool" blades from monosteel and more traditionally forged pusaka blades?

Regards,
Kai