Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th January 2023, 04:48 AM   #1
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default Newest Treasure Acquisition, The Most Magic Knife, Esoteric Secrets, Gematria,+,+,+

The circumstances leading to me acquiring this could make a person believe in magic...

Arrived recently from France
Sold to me as 18c , Castle Hunting or Chef Knife
I inquired for more info and the seller from his source couldn't get any more info other then he though it was "Nogent".

to the best of my research
I think it may be a knife from chatellerault area.

there is a lot of symbolism to unpack I would start with the most obvious the 999, the Orphic egg and the Kolovrat.

I could use help figuring out any blade info, thoughts on age? origin? construction, style, etc..

I like to imagine it was made following all the rituals, on certain days with certain invocation, used by the likes of an early renaissance alchemist...

please standby I have many many photos, perhaps i will have to comeback and remove some if they cant be easily accommodated.

thanks for any and all help,

please enjoy the photos, and avoid and negative perceptions, I feel nothing satanic here to see, maybe pagan but that is very different. stay positive I think this was used for speaking to angels, nothing bad.. I personally think about the god Phanes.
Attached Images
         

Last edited by JoeCanada42; 27th January 2023 at 09:31 PM.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 27th January 2023, 04:50 AM   #2
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

more photos
Attached Images
           

Last edited by JoeCanada42; 27th January 2023 at 09:32 PM.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 27th January 2023, 04:54 AM   #3
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

again more photos not a duplicate post
Attached Images
          

Last edited by JoeCanada42; 27th January 2023 at 09:32 PM.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 27th January 2023, 04:58 AM   #4
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

last of photos
Attached Images
         

Last edited by JoeCanada42; 27th January 2023 at 05:53 AM.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 27th January 2023, 08:55 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,224
Default

This is most interesting Joe, and I wanted to try to enter some possibilities which hopefully will be recognized for simply identification purposes.

The reference to 'Nogent' mentioned is to the city in France known for production of cutlery and various bladed implements. There is a Musee de la Coutellerie there which might have information. In Levines 4th edition (1997,) I found no useful example in the comprehensive examples of knives.

It seems to be this is a considerably old knife, the blade seems to be reprofiled from a sword, and IMO it is more in the shape of a hunting knife. The 'fish tail' is unusual, and have not found any similar.

It does seem there is a potential for being the 'athame' type knife of occult practices, as these are notably with black hilt as seen here. As far as I know there are no prescribed forms for these, but the unusual pommel and the equally unusual symbols on the grip seem to augment to notion.

While the gold color device seems more a baroque aesthetic it could very well be an interpretation of an esoteric sigil. The circular cartouche seems to represent some type of bird in a fylfot configuration, representing circular or repetitive motion dynamically, which does relate to certain alchemical type symbolism. This seems to be an innocuous example, while of course there are other types of this device more sinister.

I do not see any reason to read any of those connotations into this and see this as an intriguing example of a repurposed old sword blade, quite long ago fashioned into this mysterious knife probably in France.

I would bring into view the author Gerald Gardner who became well known in modern occult in the 1950s, and whose interest in vintage edged weapons was focused on the keris. His knowledge and understanding of these kinds of properties were instrumental it would seem in those of these kinds of knives.
The numeric 999 is indeed supposed to be an angelic number, which no doubt certain proponents might see as the obverse number.

I hope this example can remain observed objectively as it is an aspect of edged weaponry seldom ever touched on. It is well known that many swords of antiquity and with noted use in historic campaigns often ended up in Masonic context in lodges, and other fraternal groups. I would consider perhaps this blade might have had similar circumstance.
Jim McDougall is offline  
Old 28th January 2023, 05:11 AM   #6
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

thanks Jim for Your interest and research it means a lot
I guess part of the magic could be people interpret the symbols differently
now when I look at what I called the kolovrat, I can see some other stuff..
it could be and earth symbol, but also I see spiraling wind gusts, flames of fire, and rain or waves, it could be an abstract representing all the elements...
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 28th January 2023, 05:24 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,224
Default

My pleasure Joe, its an intriguing knife and unusual so looking into the many possibilities is much of the fun of learning with the knife as a focal point.
As with much of edged weaponry, markings and symbolism are with arcane meanings, and we can usually only speculate.

We could write pages here on what these symbols and the knife itself might be, but until we find some distinct corroboration, it remains a fascinating mystery.
Jim McDougall is offline  
Old 28th January 2023, 06:19 PM   #8
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 178
Default

To have any significance in terms of its Gematria the number would have to be 666 not 999. 666 together with 1080 added together equals 1746. Sometimes called the number of fusion. The most important number in the hierarchy of significant numbers , translating as it does into ' the spirit of the universe' or 'grain of mustard seed'. The negative connotations of 666 are believed to an attempt by the early church to distance itself from ideas that were certainly pre Christian in origin. An angel number can be any number with 3 repeated digits so I can't see this as having any esoteric meaning.
Raf is offline  
Old 28th January 2023, 11:56 PM   #9
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

Hi Raf thanks for some insight

well depending on perception and orientation that number 666 is present

honestly my grasp of gematria is very limited, I don't know why those other numbers have come into play. in a quick research I do find a lot significance with 999 in gematria among Hebrew, Greek and English...
as far as angel numbers go I know even less,
I didn't exactly say its an angel number I said I think it was used to speak with angels, only one of my more light hearted hypothesis.

excluding gematria 999 is significant in other systems like the IChing and other religions.. even in simple math 9 is amusing, for example 6+6+6=18 1+8=9
or 9+9+9 +27, 2+7=9

I think the ____999_____ could represent 9999999999 ad infinitum... a representation of the infinite,, or the marco and micro
I am Shure there are numerous other ways to interpret the numbers using various systems.
the numerous interpretations again , could be part of the magic? and part of the way of occulting the esoteric

for example, the handle looks damaged? eaten by bugs?
could it have been previously buried....

Last edited by JoeCanada42; 29th January 2023 at 02:20 AM.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 29th January 2023, 01:04 AM   #10
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

this thought just occured to me.....
9+9+9+9=36, 3+6=9
9+9+9+9+9=45, 4+5=9
9+9+9+9+9+9= 54, 5+4=9

9x13=117 , 1+1+7=9
9x25=225 , 2+2+5=9
9x367 3303, 3+3+0+3=9

ad finitum
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 29th January 2023, 01:29 PM   #11
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 178
Default

Or 1 divided 9 =1111111111 and 1111111111 x 1111111111=123456789 which I still find really scary.
Are you sure the handle isn't actually horn? Horn was the plastic of the eighteenth century. It could be boiled in caustic which de natures the horn and reduces it to a pulpy plastic mass that could be pressed into moulds. When dry it reverts back to a solid form. Inlays could be temporarily attached to the inside of the mould and the horn moulds itself around the inlay. Which is maybe what you have here. Is that alchemical enough for you ?
Raf is offline  
Old 29th January 2023, 03:58 PM   #12
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

yes, quite alchemical, thank you very much!
That is something very interesting and something I have not heard of.
Actually I was not at all certain what the handle was made from, I was assuming ebony or horn.
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 07:31 AM   #13
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

I Hope these Posts can help inspire more comments
they are part of my quest to uncover the meaning in the symbols or some corroborative evidence .
What came first the the Chicken or the Egg?
A:they exist inside the other
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 07:33 AM   #14
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

abrakadabra,,, Abraxas,, and Hermanubis

The mysteries are like an onion with many layers but one core
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 07:34 AM   #15
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

what kind of blade? I was thinking, arming sword?, knightly sword?, Viking sword?
something significant?
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 01:24 PM   #16
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 275
Default

Joe that is quite a rabbit hole you are going down. I can appreciate this as I am also a global learner and ideas tend to spider web and morph into related concepts for me as well.

Yes, the swastika was a solar sign usually associated with a cycle of rebirth. Day and night were a metaphor for the transmigration of the soul. The other side of the handle could be looked at as a fertility symbol of vaguely phallic and vaginal symbolism especially when mixed vegetative growth. Were these put there for an overt purpose? Or were they vestigial decorations that were merely decorations? My grandparents had a family bible from the last quarter of19th century its cover was covered in a knotwork of protection spells. Were they there in a pagan sense or just serendipity? I would argue that the artist did not know what they were imitating and merely added the pattern to give the bible a traditional cultural feel to the demographic the sale was aimed at, but that is just my opinion. If the knowledge and practices was still common understanding it would not be so esoteric. In my insignificant opinion it is interesting and important to understand where art and tradition originate but I am not sure how much meaning is behind the placement of such symbols. They do help the since of continuity with prehistory though.
Interested Party is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 07:54 PM   #17
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,224
Default "..curioser and curiouser"!!

Very well said I.P.!!!
In the study of ethnographic arms, there are constant religious, superstitious, talismanic imbuements of virtually all sorts, though scholarly studies typically are inclined to avoid any in depth study of these. Presumably anything which cannot be proven empirically is glossed over except with occasional side notes.
However, in the designs and symbolism inherent in most of these forms, these are virtually predominant, despite metaphysical origins.

In European arms the presence of similar associations with magic, occult and superstitious elements in decoration, inscriptions and markings equally are often present.

Ironically, much of the same arcane symbology is of course present on these kinds of weapons in the private sector and often in ritual and ceremonial practice. Yet this is often met with similar reticence to that of serious study of these kinds of character in the arms used in warfare or self defense.

I have always thought, we do not have to believe in what these symbols and esoteric elements represent....but to understand and perhaps identify a weapon being examined.....we must become aware of what the people using them believed.

As I.P. has well noted, often examples being copied or produced later may well incorporate the significant symbols without awareness of meaning, but simply carrying forth the completeness of the item copied.

I always think of the automotive analogy........in the 1950s, the Buick had distinctive discs on the side of the hood. Most people had no idea what these represented, however these were vestigial representations of the exhaust ports from cars of the 1930s, as well as aviation, those on fighter planes.
Jim McDougall is offline  
Old 2nd February 2023, 09:36 PM   #18
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

well said both of you and thanks
here is an example that I feel displays "vestigial decorations"
with similarity
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 23rd February 2023, 12:41 AM   #19
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

bump
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 02:35 AM   #20
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

this one just arrived today, anyone with some thoughts, or ideas about the sigil please share, thanks
Attached Images
            
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 02:37 AM   #21
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

thanks
Attached Images
            
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 08:27 AM   #22
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,208
Default

A letter opener ?
fernando is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 04:27 PM   #23
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

well yes, and that's what it was sold to me as
but I suspect a very old one, or a home made one...

the sigil marking adds some mystery and I think helps support the fact it is more than just a letter opener
antique letter openers on their own are quite collectable, but there is a market as well for bronze/ brass athames. I have read and heard of many wiccans that start with a letter opener...
magic enchantment wont stick to iron, but copper alloys are good, much better for a wand or dowsing rod...
also for working with the Fae or Aos Si or anything offended by iron.
I did look at every brass bronze athame (& letter openers) I could find. this one spoke to me as being genuine. I suspect something like this would be used in magical treasure hunting, the sigil seems to look like a "money attraction symbol"
it didn't cost much and there is a lot of upside to the gamble, something like this could be very old, or could be made out of special alloys,

maybe it just looks like a letter opener partly on purpose for many reasons you may not want family or authorities to find out you practice magic or magic treasure hunting even, which I understand was quite popular.

currently I am almost done reading : Magical Treasure Hunting in Europe and North America by Johannes Dillinger, quite interesting., thought I would read it and maybe find some info , seems I don't need the magic, I seem to have the tools and treasures coming my way anyway .

I think maybe someone made a copy of a letter opener to produce there own athame? and definitely looks old...
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 06:22 PM   #24
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,208
Default

I don't think that, uploading a pile of (25) pictures of this item, will help rejecting the idea that this is a crude decorative article or a utensil like a letter opener. A modern one, by the way.
fernando is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 08:35 PM   #25
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

well I think the photos show the evidence for methods of manufacture(file marks on blade and handle..), the age, and wear/damage and the patina, also the photos can help with figuring out the sigil and imagery on the guard.

everyone is entitled to an opinion, I know the odds are not in my favor but given the evidence I see I will hold out and keep researching.

do you have any evidence to support you feelings on the piece?
would be helpful...

sorry if you want me to post less photos,,,... I thought people would appreciate more photos...I always wish people would post more photos
tell me if u think I don't need so many photos in the future

"I don't think that, uploading a pile of (25) pictures of this item, will help rejecting the idea that this is a crude decorative article or a utensil like a letter opener. A modern one, by the way."---I think you used a double negative, not Shure if I need to disagree with you lol

more photos are to help prove its old, less photos of low quality would deceive
more photos to help prove its old or not either way...

please elaborate if you can why modern in your view...


Its definitely has got some peculiar art on the guard that has been calling out to me, and I think its finally spoken to me, and given me a connection worth looking at.
maybe just coincidence the similarity.... maybe not?
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 14th March 2023, 11:40 PM   #26
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Joe that is quite a rabbit hole you are going down. I can appreciate this as I am also a global learner and ideas tend to spider web and morph into related concepts for me as well.
well here is another rabbit hole I hope some may appreciate,
just put this together,
trying to work with you Fernando took forever but put 35+ images into one..

Bes Commonly depicted on an instrument called the Sistrum
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 15th March 2023, 03:30 AM   #27
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

some coins, and scarab amulets
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Old 15th March 2023, 04:13 AM   #28
JoeCanada42
Member
 
JoeCanada42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 259
Default

I just found this....
freaky how remarkably familiar...
these were called French romantic..
Attached Images
 
JoeCanada42 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.