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Old 16th January 2023, 04:21 PM   #1
fernando
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Default Sword for ID ... please

A friend of mine needs you Gentlemen to identify this sword. Can you help, please ?


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Old 16th January 2023, 06:57 PM   #2
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The blade has standard Solingen etching, the fullers appear to run out the end of the blade showing it to have been cut down, probably from cavalry length. The hilt is in the style of the British P1796 Light Cavalry but in brass when cavalry hilts were steel. My best guess is an unofficial British infantry sabre with a field blade replacement from approx 1796 - 1803.

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Old 16th January 2023, 07:16 PM   #3
fernando
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Thanks much Robert. Will pass the info to my friend.
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Old 16th January 2023, 10:23 PM   #4
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I do agree with the above answer but the scabbard fittings are most un British in style
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Old 16th January 2023, 11:04 PM   #5
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I do agree with the above answer but the scabbard fittings are most un British in style
A cut down blade (reused broken blade) and repurposed could have been done in India or elsewhere.
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Old 18th January 2023, 09:01 AM   #6
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Thank you guys. Most certainly the scabbard is not the original one, shortened to fit the new blade lenght, but one arranged for the purpose. This because the present one suspends with a button and the previously longer sword must have suspended with rings.
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Old 18th January 2023, 09:59 AM   #7
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Thank you guys. Most certainly the scabbard is not the original one, shortened to fit the new blade lenght, but one arranged for the purpose. This because the present one suspends with a button and the previously longer sword must have suspended with rings.
This is not necessarily the case. I have a full length (807mm blade) 1803 Pattern ‘Flank’ Officers sabre that only has the frog stud on the scabbard which shows no evidence of ever having had the suspension rings. One of my late 18th Century spadroons also only has the frog stud and thats a full length blade as well.

In fact almost all my swords with leather scabbards have a frog studd, even if they have suspension loops as well. Having both options offered the retailer flexibility in who the sword was sold to.

For the ones that don’t have the studd, a strong case can be made that they belonged to cavalry officers.
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Old 18th January 2023, 10:18 AM   #8
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Duly noted, thank you .
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Old 18th January 2023, 05:44 PM   #9
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Most interesting saber. The stirrup hilt which became well known in this form with the British M1796 light cavalry saber, was well known in good number of other countries as well. The scabbard with brass fittings and frog stud seem of course of Georgian British period, but such scabbards of leather with these kinds of fittings were widely used through other times and with other types of sabers such as pioneer, sapper etc.

As this blade is shortened as it appears per other observations, it is likely the scabbard could easily have been fashioned accordingly using donor mounts.

This blade has me intrigued, and does not seem Solingen, though the seemingly astral symbols are of the type seen on their blades. However this blade and the unusual fullers seem Eastern European, and the symbols atypical.

Any chance of better pics of the symbols?
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Old 18th January 2023, 05:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
This is not necessarily the case. I have a full length (807mm blade) 1803 Pattern ‘Flank’ Officers sabre that only has the frog stud on the scabbard which shows no evidence of ever having had the suspension rings. One of my late 18th Century spadroons also only has the frog stud and thats a full length blade as well.

In fact almost all my swords with leather scabbards have a frog studd, even if they have suspension loops as well. Having both options offered the retailer flexibility in who the sword was sold to.

For the ones that don’t have the studd, a strong case can be made that they belonged to cavalry officers.

It seems that often these studs were a fixture on these leather brass mounted scabbards in addition to suspension rings as you note. I am wondering if perhaps flank company officers, who like infantry officers, were typically mounted might have preferred the option for both.

Will's suggestion of possibly India for this compellingly British hilt might be well placed as the unusually flamboyant character of the mounts. The idea of a colonial setting for this seems possible, and British officers were known for propensity for 'exotic' sword hybrids and trophy blades.
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Old 18th January 2023, 06:56 PM   #11
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..I am wondering if perhaps flank company officers, who like infantry officers, were typically mounted might have preferred the option for both.

...

...Until rifles became more prevalent on the battlefield, especially with skirmishers, who were rather fond of shooting officers, easily distinguished by being mounted. This also signalled the death-knell of infantry officers carrying swords in WW1. Maybe they still mounted for parades.
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Old 18th January 2023, 10:43 PM   #12
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...Until rifles became more prevalent on the battlefield, especially with skirmishers, who were rather fond of shooting officers, easily distinguished by being mounted. This also signalled the death-knell of infantry officers carrying swords in WW1. Maybe they still mounted for parades.
That makes perfect sense Wayne, thank you. Your military insights always bring things into perspective.
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Old 19th January 2023, 01:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
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I am wondering if perhaps flank company officers, who like infantry officers, were typically mounted might have preferred the option for both.
Only the more senior officers were allowed to ride horses, the more junior ones would have marched with their men. Being mounted would have impeded the officers’ ability to guide their men, be it in the Line companies or the ‘Flank’ Companies i.e. Grenadiers and Light Infantry.
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Old 19th January 2023, 10:58 AM   #14
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Thanks again, Gentlemen. That was the only picture my friend had from the dealer. Now he got a few more.


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Old 19th January 2023, 11:18 AM   #15
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The engraving is very similar to what is on one of my French swords by Cassaignard in Nantes where he worked as a furbisher from 1774 to 1812. From what I have read, it is believed he used Solingen made blades, but the sword, sun and face in the moon images are common on his sword. I’d be curious to hear if there is any writing under the langets.

The scabbard as noted earlier looks more French than English, but the drag should be in steel not copper like this and mine, a sure sign that it’s a new replacement.

The hilt on the other hand looks to be 100% English, esp with the little detailing inside the top corner of the knuckle bow. However the grip leather and wire are too new in relation to the rest of the sword.

My thought is that this is a composite sword made out of a cut down blade.
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Old 19th January 2023, 07:25 PM   #16
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Thank you for the added pics. Now seeing these markings I can see they are very much "Caissagnard' as Radboud notes. These kinds of cosmological symbols are typically associated with Solingen as noted as well, however their origins seem to be well associated with Eastern Europe. This is particularly the case with the arm and sword out of the cloud.

It is quite likely that Caissagnard got blades from Solingen, much as many cutlers/furbishers etc. did in the latter 18th c. I think the other sources in France may have used German blades as well, before Klingenthal was officially established in this time, though German makers were present in the shops.

In the latter 18th c. George III and his son, Prince of Wales (later George IV) like most of the gentry in England, were greatly influenced by things French. Despite the constant threat of war, it seems the contacts with French upper echelon remained at hand.

This hilt I agree looks very British, and the blade is most certainly shorter than it once was. It very well could be a blade which came through Nantes, but its final disposition is anybody's guess. Officers of all branches had carte blanche in their interpretations and fashion. Fascinating whatever it is.
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Old 27th January 2023, 02:13 PM   #17
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These Solingen blades from the 1st half of the 18th century do appear oddly often on later hilts and are commonly shortened. This style of blade with its fullers was mainly made for East-Central Europe. Local production of a similar design however started in the mid 19th century as a consequence of patriotic and nostalgic momentum where these unfullered ricassos were used to place iconic or written dedications.

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