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19th November 2023, 02:44 PM | #1 |
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Actually the British did NOT have a flourishing blade industry, and did not make any particular advances into this until the latter 18th c. If you read the threads on Shotley Bridge here, this circumstance has been brilliantly researched by Keith Fisher over some years, and his book "The Crown and the Crossed Swords"is one of the most informative references on this subject available in my opinion.
Solingen did have the most dynamic blade making industry however, and by the 1780s in Great Britain, there were only three blade makers of note, despite incidental production elsewhere, most notable in Shotley. However in most cases, it was German blades that dominated, leading to the so called 'sword scandals' led by Thomas Gill in Birmingham calling for more British production over German. The Polish sword situation was with some blades from Solingen possibly, but in most cases it was blades from Lvov, and some Styrian locations. In "Origins of the Polish Saber" (Jan Ostrowski, 1979) it is noted that there were no blade producing centers in Hungary, as their blades were from Styrian centers typically. As Styria was of course a state in Austro-Hungary, the Austrian blades were also primarily from these regions. The rose on the blade spine is interesting and is of course European, but not certain Solingen necessarily. Keep in mind that the Solingen shops adopted many names, markings, and affectations from other places which were added spuriously, often presenting difficulty in proper identifications. As you correctly observe, fashion was key in the colorful pageantry of the cavalry especially in the 18th century into the Napoleonic wars. This was prevalent in the hussar regiments, whose character as dashing light cavalry inspired many countries to add such units to the long standing dragoon regiments . Light cavalry and hussars of course favored the saber, taken from the Turkish examples used by their formidable light cavalry forces and tactics., By the mid 18th century, throughout France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands etc. all were adding these hussar units, and of course, the saber. Actually there were units of Hungarian hussars in the French army and others. This diffusion cannot even be remotely touched on here, so the 'styles' of sabers moving through Europe accordingly can well be imagined. I must admit that even in the many years I have studied this history, I cannot claim any particular expertise, and am still learning, so finding it difficult to find specific answers and classifications is of course understandable. As noted, officers, particularly in these times, had their swords privately commissioned, and often these were to their own whims as well as with features of other forms. In many cases, cutlers who assembled and mounted swords used blades from various sources, and were often workers in precious metals who created hilts based on popular styles. Identifying these kinds of swords relies on endless study, comparison, obscure resources, and items with sound provenance that has some reliable documentation. It is a relentless, fascinating and often obsessive pursuit, so ......welcome to the chase!!!! You clearly have a discerning eye, this saber is outstanding and again, in my opinion most likely Polish, or of Polish character, as shown. However, to say exactly what its circumstances were, where in the cavalries of Eastern Europe it was used. With only the popular 18th c. standard military flourish in blade decoration and no distinct cyphers etc.it is hard to say more. |
19th November 2023, 08:27 PM | #2 | |
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What a great sword you have Cel7. Lovely curved blade with that clipped point. Or what the French call a 'carp's tongue'.
Going by the blade shape, features, and the lion or dog head pommel, this is not a British officer's sword. Importantly it doesn't have the GR cypher on the blade, which combined with the other features rules out British in my opinion. My vote would be German states, Switzerland or further east, the link Jim posted is a very real possibility too. Quote:
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19th November 2023, 08:33 PM | #3 |
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Good note on the rose, and it seems I have seen this someplace but as yet unable to retrieve....what is the Solingen connection with rose on blade spine?
As far as I have known the British placed makers names on spines in latter 18th through 19th, and some Austrian blades have them, as well of course as French. Blade decoration using these kinds of motifs was by no means a Solingen distinction, and European blades in Eastern Europe often have profuse themes, with hussars, 'vivat pandour', panoplies of arms etc. As noted, Solingen often duplicated many of these along with their use of spurious markings. |
19th November 2023, 08:47 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Some Rose marked blades have the maker or exporter logo in the cartouch, while others show just the cartouch. Then again, the Rose is not always present on all Solingen blades either. J J Runkel had his name engraved on the spine, while one of my Dutch sabres has the Dutch cutler's name in its place. Smallsword blades don't seem to have it either, while I've seen it on spadroon blades. There's a lot of variation in style as well, and we can say with confidence that the Solingen blade smiths were happy to change decoration to suit their buyers' tastes. |
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19th November 2023, 10:54 PM | #5 |
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Well noted, the Solingen shops were masters at appeasing clientele and use of all manner of motif, marks, wording etc.
John Justus Runkel was a London based supplier who brought blades in from Solingen (I think from one family in particular, I think it was Neff) then applied his name to the blade spine, and sold them to cutlers. In rechecking Seifert (1962) in the plate I do see the similarity between the 'carps tongue' and 'pandour' points, and these clipped points seem somewhat in between. I recall seeing French blades with these kinds of point (blade tip). In the straight saber deemed a M1780 (not an official pattern) British which has a somewhat similar tip but more subdued. As the British used German blades so consistently, this one seemed Solingen though by this time the British were producing some blades. * example 'e' Seifert I have seen termed 'quill point'. the example with widened point (Persian) the feature is the 'yelman' which I was once told by a Polish fencing master/historian was referred to as 'the feather', but actually intended to add weight and momentum to the cut. Still curious on this rose design on hilts, any other examples? Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th November 2023 at 12:02 AM. |
19th November 2023, 11:39 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Also, I suspect that Runkel imported his blades complete with his name and decoration on them. To engrave them himself would mean that he needed to reapply the blue and gilt again. Do you mean on the spine? I'll start up another thread. |
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20th November 2023, 02:00 AM | #7 |
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Excellent, a great topic and its own thread a great move.
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19th November 2023, 10:56 PM | #8 |
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Thanks for your input! Very educational to discuss this.
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