Bringing back an atypical (?) dagger

fernando · 1st November 2023, 12:05 PM

I must have posted this dagger in the earlier forum version, nearly two decades ago. Although its discussion had a significant contribution, its identification never reached a consensus. Perhaps now, in a new context and new members in the audience, some light could be brought into it.
For what it is worth, the marks on both the grip and guard are different in each side.
Blade 36 cms. Handle 10 cms. Weight 211 grams.

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Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 09:45 AM

I do seem to recall this intriguing anomaly, and hard to believe it was two decades ago! Do you recall any dialogue or comments in those earlier discussions?
All I can speculate is this must be some sort of perhaps naval dirk, and seems very much something one off. That it is very deliberately contrived seems clear with the crenellated style rise in crossguard perhaps recalling a vestigial shell guard.

While the downturned quillons of course resemble left hand daggers often en suite with rapiers etc. this is obviously not the case, and this does not seem to be something 'theatrical' as there is no effort to approximate same.

The deeply stamped markings seem to resemble Roman numeral '1's but not arranged in any sort of meaningful configuration, so the almost random placement suggests possibly other significance. The only place I can think of using Roman numerals are British 'Bowies' of 19th c. but typically XL etc.

I cant tell on the quillon underside if those are letters 'NWA"? or simply rocker type triangles.

The only thing distinctly recognizable are the two marks on other quillon underside which resemble the Italian twig marks found on blades in various configurations. This does not suggest this is Italian however as these sometimes occur spuriously on blades in other centers in degree.

Not much help Im afraid, but hopefully there will be others with more familiarity with knives who has seen something similar.

fernando · 3rd November 2023, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do seem to recall this intriguing anomaly, and hard to believe it was two decades ago! Do you recall any dialogue or comments in those earlier discussions?
All i can speculate is this must be some sort of perhaps naval dirk, and seems very much something one off...

Thank you for your good willing, Jim. The only attempt i recall being approached with some exchange between members was that it could be a left hand dagger; an opinion i would not support myself, starting by the lack of robustness of the guard. I would not call it a dirk either; i don't see it has the looks of it.
One noteworthy detail it didn't raise at the time, as i didn't mention or even posted adequate pictures is that, the tang doesn't have the 'spike' shape but, instead, is flat and so wide as the grip; which (only now) comes to my mind that this dagger may have been built from a broken sword blade, that of a slender rapier. Its blade looks indeed like rather serious stuff. It helps considering that it was bought in a street fair (in 2002) down South, a 100 miles away from Spain, suggesting we may deal with either a Portuguese or Spanish provenance. And a village smith with personal imagination and a few 'punzones' avbailable, commissioned by a customer without (or with) graphic demands.
As for those marks in the quillon underside looking like real letters, what do i know ? Maybe just "look like".

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Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 05:57 PM

I think you're right Fernando, the blade does seem like a repurposed full length blade, and this was of course a common practice. The only reason I suggested a dirk is that these were the most common 'next size down' versions for the continued use of such blades. Blades were a prized commodity, so to keep them in use in lesser size was an understandable solution for broken ones.

We are familiar with the stories of the Scottish dirks, many had blades which were once the huge two hand claymores, then to the basket hilt, then to the dirk, then to the skean dubh. Naturally such progression was not standard, but just shows the edged weapon graduated scale.

As you note, in rural or remote areas any village smith might produce such an ersatz weapon, and not having a selection of punzones, made the best use of what he had in whatever melange of markings he may have seen on other weapons.
It is too long for a left hand dagger, which were out of use overall by the time of this piece, but the downturn quillons are mindful of the typical appearance. The approximation of the Italian 'twig marks' (Wallace Coll. 1962) adds plausibility to the attempts to establish meaningful motif from other weapons seen , and I can see the linear 'V' marks now, again suggesting same.
Whatever the case, a quaint piece, all the more attractive for the secrets it holds.

fernando · 3rd November 2023, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is too long for a left hand dagger, which were out of use overall by the time of this piece, but the downturn quillons are mindful of the typical appearance.

You know left handers can be large, Jim; vide Wallace Collection page 414. In either case, centimeters, not inches

. One other thing i wonder about is the approximate age of this dagger. How would you place it ? At least the blade is rather old stuff

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

You know left handers can be large, Jim; vide Wallace Collection page 414. In either case, centimeters, not inches

. One other thing i wonder about is the approximate age of this dagger. How would you place it ? At least the blade is rather old stuff

yes, left handers could be large, and indeed the downward quillon was as popular on them as 'parrying'. So 'historismus' ? late 18th early 19th? In one off things composite with old blade without comparisons, without hands on forensics, who knows?

1st November 2023, 12:05 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,643	Bringing back an atypical (?) dagger I must have posted this dagger in the earlier forum version, nearly two decades ago. Although its discussion had a significant contribution, its identification never reached a consensus. Perhaps now, in a new context and new members in the audience, some light could be brought into it. For what it is worth, the marks on both the grip and guard are different in each side. Blade 36 cms. Handle 10 cms. Weight 211 grams. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st November 2023 at 12:25 PM.

3rd November 2023, 09:45 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,775	I do seem to recall this intriguing anomaly, and hard to believe it was two decades ago! Do you recall any dialogue or comments in those earlier discussions? All I can speculate is this must be some sort of perhaps naval dirk, and seems very much something one off. That it is very deliberately contrived seems clear with the crenellated style rise in crossguard perhaps recalling a vestigial shell guard. While the downturned quillons of course resemble left hand daggers often en suite with rapiers etc. this is obviously not the case, and this does not seem to be something 'theatrical' as there is no effort to approximate same. The deeply stamped markings seem to resemble Roman numeral '1's but not arranged in any sort of meaningful configuration, so the almost random placement suggests possibly other significance. The only place I can think of using Roman numerals are British 'Bowies' of 19th c. but typically XL etc. I cant tell on the quillon underside if those are letters 'NWA"? or simply rocker type triangles. The only thing distinctly recognizable are the two marks on other quillon underside which resemble the Italian twig marks found on blades in various configurations. This does not suggest this is Italian however as these sometimes occur spuriously on blades in other centers in degree. Not much help Im afraid, but hopefully there will be others with more familiarity with knives who has seen something similar.

3rd November 2023, 05:57 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,775	I think you're right Fernando, the blade does seem like a repurposed full length blade, and this was of course a common practice. The only reason I suggested a dirk is that these were the most common 'next size down' versions for the continued use of such blades. Blades were a prized commodity, so to keep them in use in lesser size was an understandable solution for broken ones. We are familiar with the stories of the Scottish dirks, many had blades which were once the huge two hand claymores, then to the basket hilt, then to the dirk, then to the skean dubh. Naturally such progression was not standard, but just shows the edged weapon graduated scale. As you note, in rural or remote areas any village smith might produce such an ersatz weapon, and not having a selection of punzones, made the best use of what he had in whatever melange of markings he may have seen on other weapons. It is too long for a left hand dagger, which were out of use overall by the time of this piece, but the downturn quillons are mindful of the typical appearance. The approximation of the Italian 'twig marks' (Wallace Coll. 1962) adds plausibility to the attempts to establish meaningful motif from other weapons seen , and I can see the linear 'V' marks now, again suggesting same. Whatever the case, a quaint piece, all the more attractive for the secrets it holds.