Long Keris

RobertGuy · 14th November 2015, 07:32 PM

I am new to collecting keris, this being my second example.

The catalogue description was as follows:
19th Century Long Bladed Executioner's Malayan Kris. 22 inch straight double edged blade. Large top forte. Two short chiseled top fullers. Polished horn grip with oval turned in pommel carved with a flower and foliage design. Contained in its wooden scabbard with large throat. Old repair to chape.

The stats are:
Weight, sword: 12oz (0.34kg), in scabbard: 1lb (0.46kg)
Length overall: 26.75'' (68cm) Blade: 22'' (56cm)
POB: 3.5'' (9cm)
Profile taper: 2.43'' (61.7mm) at widest part of ricasso, 0.69'' (17.5mm) just after ricasso 0.67' (17.2mm) mid blade, 0.49'' (12.5mm) 2 inches from tip.
Distal taper 0.56'' (14.6mm) at ricasso, 0.11'' (2.9mm) mid blade. 0.08'' (2mm) 2 inches from tip.

I know that the term Executioner's Keris is misleading but I do have a few other questions. I am not sure if the grip is horn as the slight areas of damage show a strong grain. Is this a characteristic of horn or is ebony or similar wood more likely? I will try and include a close-up picture.
The pamor on the blade is very plain and I gather that this can sometimes indicate an older blade. Can this one be classified and dated?
Finally a general question, the handle orientation seems to vary from keris to keris on the examples I have seen. Is there a reason for this?, is there a standard way to hold a keris or just individual choice and preference? Any information people here can share with a newbie will be gratefully received. Thank you.

GIO · 15th November 2015, 03:03 PM

A nice Sumatran panjang blade, not that old but with some age. The tapak kuda hilt very likely horn, which is normally found with this kind of kerises. The scabbard seems of recent manufacture but unfortunately the grain of the wood in the lower part of the gandar is not up to the overall quality of the rest of the scabbard.
The absence of pamor is normal for such blades. I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades, probably to increase the appeal.
As to the orientation of the hilt, there is no strict rule. It depens how comfortably it rests in the hand when holding the kris in the proper way.
Congratulations for the purchase.

GIO · 15th November 2015, 03:06 PM

One more thing: a nice selut would greatly enhance the aspect and value of this keris.

kai · 15th November 2015, 03:34 PM

Hello Robert,

Looks like a genuine keris panjang!

Quote:

I am not sure if the grip is horn as the slight areas of damage show a strong grain. Is this a characteristic of horn or is ebony or similar wood more likely? I will try and include a close-up picture.

Aged horn can also show grain - from the pics given, I'm not prepared to decide. However, the pic of the base of the hilt does look more like painted wood to me (consistent with a few worn edges shown at the pommel end).

Quote:

The pamor on the blade is very plain and I gather that this can sometimes indicate an older blade. Can this one be classified and dated?

It does look like an old, genuine blade, indeed. Most of these Bangkinang style blades are forged from very densely laminated but non-contrasting metal and appear to be pamorless (compared to the bold pamors seen on many keris); IMHO not much to base an age estimate on since there always have been bolder and less bold pamor types.

One would be tempted to classify this blade as Sumatran (realising these got traded widely) and antique. However, the greneng are very well preserved and, from the top of my head, I can't place this specific style.

Quote:

Finally a general question, the handle orientation seems to vary from keris to keris on the examples I have seen. Is there a reason for this?, is there a standard way to hold a keris or just individual choice and preference?

Truth to be told, most hilt placements seen are for convenient storage (or display). For most keris the standard grip would be to snuggle up on the blade and pinch the horizontally orientated blade between the thumb on top and the curled index finger below with the pommel resting in the palm for directly transmitting the power from the base of the hand/wrist into the thrust (blade with gandik pointing to the left for the right hand). The 90° position on your pics is a reasonable start but in most cases a hilt somewhat turned inwards will feel best (i. e. most ergonomically). I'm not sure there really is any convenient fighting position for the hilt of a large keris panjang though - my gut feeling is that these were mainly status pieces. The smaller blades of this Bangkinang type are perfect for punching a hole or two though...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th November 2015, 03:46 PM

Thanks, Giovanni, for beating me at it!

Quote:

A nice Sumatran panjang blade, not that old but with some age.

Could also have been nicely preserved in an old European collection...

Quote:

The scabbard seems of recent manufacture but unfortunately the grain of the wood in the lower part of the gandar is not up to the overall quality of the rest of the scabbard.

That's an old repair according to the seller.

Most of these scabbards have a rounded tip. However, there are also examples with more or less blunt-ended chased silver fittings.

This and a proper selut would make the ensemble much nicer, agreed.

Regards,
Kai

David · 15th November 2015, 07:20 PM

My two cents....
The blade, especially at the greneng, does appear well preserved, but this does appear to be an antique example, so late 19th to early 20th century would not be unreasonable.
I'd say the hilt is probably horn. I doubt it is painted wood as the exposed areas at the break would not appear so dark as they do. I have seen horn look that way in broken areas, but better photos might confirm.
I believe that this sheath should have a "toe" piece at the end of the stem. These were often either horn to ivory.
I do agree that a nice "selut" would bring this piece together nicely. Such things are available if you look. Ask a trusted keris dealer if they can find you an appropriate piece.
While no pamor isn't necessarily a good gage of age, examples with complex pamors are almost always contemporary ones. Some exceptions probably exist.

GIO · 16th November 2015, 12:45 AM

Thanks Kai and David for having better developed my opinions.

RobertGuy · 16th November 2015, 10:52 AM

Thank you all very much for your help. My usual area of collecting is European military swords so getting my head around the terms and terminology of these blades is a steep learning curve. In terms of adding a selut would this keris normally have had one? Is this the same thing as a mendak? Do these require an expert to fit them? Presumably the blade needs to be removed and then refitted. Is this easy? The sabbard repair I will probably leave as is. I would rather have a piece that shows its history that over restore it and take away its charater.
Thanks again.

asomotif · 24th March 2016, 10:45 PM

Hello Robert,

Did you find a selut already ?

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2016, 12:06 AM

This comment relates only to pamor

Giovanni, you have expressed this opinion:-

"I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal"

One of the attributes of the keris is that it is a work of art. This applies most especially to the Javanese keris. Many people in the Javanese art community hold the opinion that the keris is the highest expression of Javanese plastic art.

So, in respect of keris in the current era, the opinion you have expressed is a valid one, very much so when we consider the extremely complex examples of pattern welding that can be found in many current era keris. The very finest pamor motifs that have ever been produced are being produced right now. Going several hundred years into the past, not even a ruler would have had the opportunity to own a keris with a complex pamor that equalled what we can obtain today.

However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit.
It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge.

Following the rise of Islam in Jawa there was an influx of people from the Middle East, and especially from India, and amongst these people there were numbers of metal workers, who brought their forge skills with them. During this period of Jawa's development we saw the development of complex pamor motifs, that were accompanied by their own talismanic values.

In the Ying Yai Sheng Lan (1416) we find this:-

"--- The men have a pu-lak stuck in their girdle, everybody carrying such a weapon, from the child of three years up to the oldest man; these daggers have very thin stripes and whitish flowers and are made of the very best steel, the handle is of
gold, rhinoceros horn or ivory, cut into the shape of human or devils faces and finished very carefully.---"

Scholars have interpreted this as evidence of the existence of pamor, and of keris, from at least the early 15th. century.

So --- pamor in keris has been around for quite a while.

David · 25th March 2016, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit.
It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge.

Hi Alan. What you have written is obviously true, however, when Gio wrote "I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal" i believe he was speaking specifically of keris panjang, not the keris in general. If so i think i would have to agree with his assessment. Earlier keris panjang tend to have no pamor. When i do see pamor on this particular form of keris it is generally of there post-WWII variety.

RobertGuy · 25th March 2016, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Robert,

Did you find a selut already ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem
No, not yet and I'm a little unsure how to fit one.

Rick · 25th March 2016, 01:13 AM

Try to estimate accurately the diameter of the bulge on the base of the hilt; that will determine the size of the cup needed.

Then put a wanted ad in Keris Swap.

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2016, 01:31 AM

Yes David, I agree that Giovanni was probably talking about KP's, or maybe even more generally, keris from the same geographic area, however, although you and I and other very experienced people may understand this, there are many people who read this Forum who are not particularly well experienced, and without specific reference a general statement such as Giovanni's, could mislead them.

Moreover, although we are accustomed to seeing KP's without pamor, older examples with very simple pamor do exist. I currently own several, and have had others in the past.

What is true is this:- if the pamor in a KP is complex, you can bet on it that it is post 1980.

GIO · 25th March 2016, 11:27 AM

Hi Alan and David,
yes, I was referring to Panjang type of keris. Sorry for not having well specified that. Moreover I only expessed an opinion since in this part of the world we do not have many chances to examine many specimens and form a valid experience. Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

Sajen · 25th March 2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

Hello GIO,

in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang you can see my clearly antique keris panjang with pamor blade.

Regards,
Detlef

asomotif · 25th March 2016, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Willem
No, not yet and I'm a little unsure how to fit one.

Hello Robert,

have you been able to remove the hilt ?

Besided the diameter of the bulge of th ehilt, the diameter of the peksi would be helpfull. + maybe the space between hilt and ganja.

Best regards,

Willem

GIO · 26th March 2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello GIO,

in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang you can see my clearly antique keris panjang with pamor blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,
Many thanks for showing and compliments for your fine kerises.
Gio

RobertGuy · 26th March 2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Robert,

have you been able to remove the hilt ?

Besided the diameter of the bulge of th ehilt, the diameter of the peksi would be helpfull. + maybe the space between hilt and ganja.

Best regards,

Willem

No, not yet. I have posted full measurements on the swap forum though.
What is the best way of removing the hilt? Is it best to heat things, like with a hair dryer?

David · 26th March 2016, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

What is the best way of removing the hilt? Is it best to heat things, like with a hair dryer?

Is the hilt firmly fixed Robert, or is there play when you wiggle it?

RobertGuy · 26th March 2016, 06:52 PM

David
It's rock solid.

14th November 2015, 07:32 PM	#1
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Long Keris I am new to collecting keris, this being my second example. The catalogue description was as follows: 19th Century Long Bladed Executioner's Malayan Kris. 22 inch straight double edged blade. Large top forte. Two short chiseled top fullers. Polished horn grip with oval turned in pommel carved with a flower and foliage design. Contained in its wooden scabbard with large throat. Old repair to chape. The stats are: Weight, sword: 12oz (0.34kg), in scabbard: 1lb (0.46kg) Length overall: 26.75'' (68cm) Blade: 22'' (56cm) POB: 3.5'' (9cm) Profile taper: 2.43'' (61.7mm) at widest part of ricasso, 0.69'' (17.5mm) just after ricasso 0.67' (17.2mm) mid blade, 0.49'' (12.5mm) 2 inches from tip. Distal taper 0.56'' (14.6mm) at ricasso, 0.11'' (2.9mm) mid blade. 0.08'' (2mm) 2 inches from tip. I know that the term Executioner's Keris is misleading but I do have a few other questions. I am not sure if the grip is horn as the slight areas of damage show a strong grain. Is this a characteristic of horn or is ebony or similar wood more likely? I will try and include a close-up picture. The pamor on the blade is very plain and I gather that this can sometimes indicate an older blade. Can this one be classified and dated? Finally a general question, the handle orientation seems to vary from keris to keris on the examples I have seen. Is there a reason for this?, is there a standard way to hold a keris or just individual choice and preference? Any information people here can share with a newbie will be gratefully received. Thank you. Attached Images

15th November 2015, 03:03 PM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	A nice Sumatran panjang blade, not that old but with some age. The tapak kuda hilt very likely horn, which is normally found with this kind of kerises. The scabbard seems of recent manufacture but unfortunately the grain of the wood in the lower part of the gandar is not up to the overall quality of the rest of the scabbard. The absence of pamor is normal for such blades. I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades, probably to increase the appeal. As to the orientation of the hilt, there is no strict rule. It depens how comfortably it rests in the hand when holding the kris in the proper way. Congratulations for the purchase.

15th November 2015, 03:06 PM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	One more thing: a nice selut would greatly enhance the aspect and value of this keris.

15th November 2015, 07:20 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	My two cents.... The blade, especially at the greneng, does appear well preserved, but this does appear to be an antique example, so late 19th to early 20th century would not be unreasonable. I'd say the hilt is probably horn. I doubt it is painted wood as the exposed areas at the break would not appear so dark as they do. I have seen horn look that way in broken areas, but better photos might confirm. I believe that this sheath should have a "toe" piece at the end of the stem. These were often either horn to ivory. I do agree that a nice "selut" would bring this piece together nicely. Such things are available if you look. Ask a trusted keris dealer if they can find you an appropriate piece. While no pamor isn't necessarily a good gage of age, examples with complex pamors are almost always contemporary ones. Some exceptions probably exist.

16th November 2015, 12:45 AM	#7
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	Thanks Kai and David for having better developed my opinions.

16th November 2015, 10:52 AM	#8
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	Thank you all very much for your help. My usual area of collecting is European military swords so getting my head around the terms and terminology of these blades is a steep learning curve. In terms of adding a selut would this keris normally have had one? Is this the same thing as a mendak? Do these require an expert to fit them? Presumably the blade needs to be removed and then refitted. Is this easy? The sabbard repair I will probably leave as is. I would rather have a piece that shows its history that over restore it and take away its charater. Thanks again.

24th March 2016, 10:45 PM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Hello Robert, Did you find a selut already ? Best regards, Willem

25th March 2016, 12:06 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	This comment relates only to pamor Giovanni, you have expressed this opinion:- "I personally believe that the pamor is more frequently found on recent made blades,probably to increase the appeal" One of the attributes of the keris is that it is a work of art. This applies most especially to the Javanese keris. Many people in the Javanese art community hold the opinion that the keris is the highest expression of Javanese plastic art. So, in respect of keris in the current era, the opinion you have expressed is a valid one, very much so when we consider the extremely complex examples of pattern welding that can be found in many current era keris. The very finest pamor motifs that have ever been produced are being produced right now. Going several hundred years into the past, not even a ruler would have had the opportunity to own a keris with a complex pamor that equalled what we can obtain today. However, pamor itself has existed in the keris since at least the Late Eastern Javanese Period, say from at least the time of Majapahit. It very probably developed from the necessity to extend imported high quality ferric material with locally produced lower quality ferric material, by welding the two different materials together in the forge. Following the rise of Islam in Jawa there was an influx of people from the Middle East, and especially from India, and amongst these people there were numbers of metal workers, who brought their forge skills with them. During this period of Jawa's development we saw the development of complex pamor motifs, that were accompanied by their own talismanic values. In the Ying Yai Sheng Lan (1416) we find this:- "--- The men have a pu-lak stuck in their girdle, everybody carrying such a weapon, from the child of three years up to the oldest man; these daggers have very thin stripes and whitish flowers and are made of the very best steel, the handle is of gold, rhinoceros horn or ivory, cut into the shape of human or devils faces and finished very carefully.---" Scholars have interpreted this as evidence of the existence of pamor, and of keris, from at least the early 15th. century. So --- pamor in keris has been around for quite a while.

25th March 2016, 01:13 AM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Try to estimate accurately the diameter of the bulge on the base of the hilt; that will determine the size of the cup needed. Then put a wanted ad in Keris Swap.

25th March 2016, 01:31 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes David, I agree that Giovanni was probably talking about KP's, or maybe even more generally, keris from the same geographic area, however, although you and I and other very experienced people may understand this, there are many people who read this Forum who are not particularly well experienced, and without specific reference a general statement such as Giovanni's, could mislead them. Moreover, although we are accustomed to seeing KP's without pamor, older examples with very simple pamor do exist. I currently own several, and have had others in the past. What is true is this:- if the pamor in a KP is complex, you can bet on it that it is post 1980.

25th March 2016, 11:27 AM	#15
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	Hi Alan and David, yes, I was referring to Panjang type of keris. Sorry for not having well specified that. Moreover I only expessed an opinion since in this part of the world we do not have many chances to examine many specimens and form a valid experience. Interesting what Alan says about old Panjang kerises with pamor. The information adds to our knowledge and demonstrates how complex the world of keris is.

26th March 2016, 06:52 PM	#21
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	David It's rock solid.