Unusual Shashka

fernando · 7th August 2021, 02:23 PM

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you

.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th August 2021, 04:12 PM

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

JT88 · 7th August 2021, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

What is the ivory then? It has been checked out but multiple people who all agree it is genuine marine ivory.

I think that is too simple of an explanation. The fittings pass the magnet test as well.

Do you have some examples or pictures of these flea market shashka's for comparison?

Interested Party · 7th August 2021, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

Oliver I stand corrected.

Do you have an opinion on the handle material?
Is it a composite in your opinion? The band in the middle of the hilt seems to have more wear than the other elements.

Interested Party · 7th August 2021, 05:02 PM

Gentlemen, what a fascinating discussion. Thanks for the skan reference. I love having better descriptive words, I would have used filigree before. Circassian? I'm not sure? Georgian in a Circassian style, though with the skan I don't know if I would even say that. The motifs that aren't skan seem too non-abstractly floral and make me think eastern Caucasus .There is also a chape present, though without a drag, which older Circassian sheaths did not normally have. On the original sheath galloon would have been a Circassian tell. JT, have you been able to inspect the wood in the sheath in any way to see if it is original? On the subject of a block ricasso, could the blade be shortened? How long is it? All in all I would say Russian or made for a Russian considering the essay marks or lack there of. I have read something concerning the neillo motif on the throat stating that this was favored by Russians, but I can't find the reference. Jim has an argument for pre 1896, but my gut says early 20th century Dagestani fittings with an older blade. I would love for some of our Russian friends to weigh in on this subject.

Now that I am done throwing out unfounded assertions. Three things popped into my head while reading this thread.

1) Jim in #6 the "watercolor" diagrams show the mountings that carry the blade edge up, but the 1877 does not carry vertically, over all they seem in a 19th century Caucasian style shaska configuration. Was this standard for Russian cavalry at the time, or just specialized for units in the Caucasus region, or simply artistic license? While a vertical carry was said to be good for moving on foot through brush and had obvious edge retention advantages it would seem to a bit of an awkward draw for a guarded saber.

2) Not all silvers tarnish equally. Depending on what the silver is alloyed with, often copper, effects how much the silver tarnishes and how quickly. Apparently humidity and exposure to sulfur have a large role in the chemical reaction as well.

3) I found this sight useful while having internal debates on which ivory I am looking at. https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2021, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you

.

Understood Fernando

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2021, 08:14 PM

This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, and as always a total learning experience.
It has been for me more of a 'by the numbers' probe into examination of an example from photos alone, so my observations are admittedly rather arbitrary as derived from resources available.

I first began to learn about shashkas in around 1993, and through Oliver Pinchot, who honestly knew more about them than I could imagine, and most of it from first hand knowledge through many connections in these and associated regions. Though being disappointed in the outcome, I would not by any means dispute his assessment.

I.P. in your post #13, you note the pre 1896 suggestion I made, which I meant to be toward these fixtures in the mounts. It would seem surprising that the silver hallmark would be spuriously applied. Very good note on the chemical anomalies which occur in silver as well.

This blade is as agreed an older blade with the running wolf grouping more recently applied.
I had not noticed the reverse carry on the Russian swords, and I do not have 'Mollo' handy, but if I recall, the reverse carry was adopted by mounted troops after the Caucasian fashion in the Cossack units. This was I think also put into use in the line units.
In the one sword in the drawings the scabbard mounts show the cross type apertures to place the Moison-Nagant socket bayonet from the 1891 rifles.
This would suggest infantry if not mistaken.

Eduard Wagner, the artist and author of the book "Cut & Thrust Weapons" from which this is derived, was not one for 'artistic license', in fact his penchant for detail was beyond reproach in my opinion. So I would think this interpretation on the carry mounts is correct.

At this point I am still unclear on the definition of skan, and still puzzled at the grip and decorative elements in the mounts material.

I would also appreciate a more objective description of 'Circassian' style. It seems that the Circassian groups were thoroughly dispersed over much of the western Caucusus transcending regional borders.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th August 2021, 08:36 PM

The grip material may be ivory or it may be bone. The issue isn't about materials; the maker used whatever he had access to and then aged it, more or less cleverly creating something of a patina. The metal may be silver, German silver or even white brass.

Any of the forum members who are knowledgeable about Caucasian arms (notably Ariel, among others) will note that only the general form of the sword is Caucasian. The embellishment is vaguely Georgian, with its panels of filigree. The sections of carved ivory, or whatever it is, are decidedly modern-- they have no precise analog in the historical period of production. And as I noted above, the wolf, poor thing, is recent and poorly aged to look antique. the 84 mark is made with a recent stamp, slight differences are identifiable by comparison with period silver stamps.

As well-intended as much of the rest of this discussion is, it's frankly pointless. The form of the ricasso, Circassian influence on Georgian work (an existing and interesting type, but there is none whatsoever here) do not enter into the most basic characteristics of attribution: there is, as noted above, no such historical example of this type-- it is simply the modern... imagining... of a craftsman who, like many other Georgians attempting to augment their income in difficult times, engages in cottage industry. He has jeweler's skills, forming, soldering, filigree, carving, engraving and setting. If he can get hold of a blade, he's all set to create.

No, I do not have photos, I never thought them worthy of memorializing. I did comment to one bright young guy who was selling these that he was close to making genuinely good copies; why didn't he replicate what he saw in museums and books instead? Marketed as fine copies, he could do well. Too much work, he replied. Tourists have to think they stole a treasure from you. They wouldn't know the difference, anyway.

JT88 · 7th August 2021, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The grip material may be ivory or it may be bone. The issue isn't about materials; the maker used whatever he had access to and then aged it, more or less cleverly creating something of a patina. The metal may be silver, German silver or even white brass.

Any of the forum members who are knowledgeable about Caucasian arms (notably Ariel, among others) will note that only the general form of the sword is Caucasian. The embellishment is vaguely Georgian, with its panels of filigree. The sections of carved ivory, or whatever it is, are decidedly modern-- they have no precise analog in the historical period of production. And as I noted above, the wolf, poor thing, is recent and poorly aged to look antique. the 84 mark is made with a recent stamp, slight differences are identifiable by comparison with period silver stamps.

Well, I very much appreciate the expertise, I know nothing about Caucasian weapons I am quite out of my element here. They do seem to be extraordinarily complicated compared to what I generally deal with: Napoleonic weapons. I would like to still own a kinjal and perhaps another shashka someday as they are aesthetically pleasing and have an interesting history. Next time I'll consult someone with more knowledge!

Thanks again for the detailed response! /thread

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2021, 11:04 PM

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation Oliver!
Collecting in our time, more so than ever before, is perilous as these 'craftsmen' in their cottage work become more skilled.
As I have always thought, the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and one never stops learning.

The audacious comment by the bazaar seller, says it all, and the thing is...if you're going to buy and collect.....KNOW the difference!

Oliver Pinchot · 8th August 2021, 02:49 AM

JT, we all find ourselves in your situation from time to time. I would urge you to visit a reliable forum (there are many out there,) and perhaps inquire before investing in an antique arm beyond your specific knowledge? It will save you a buck in the long run. This time, just consider it tuition. That's what the rest of us do ;0)

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2021, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

JT, we all find ourselves in your situation from time to time. I would urge you to visit a reliable forum (there are many out there,) and perhaps inquire before investing in an antique arm beyond your specific knowledge? It will save you a buck in the long run. This time, just consider it tuition. That's what the rest of us do ;0)

OUCH! wow, there's some sage advice.......go out and find a 'reliable' forum! Gee, wish I would have had those back when I was just getting into it all.
Well noted on tuition, and I spent a LOT to get what knowledge I gained, but clearly not quite enough.
Thank you JT for giving us a shot here, I learned a great deal here myself, still learning........still a novice after 40+ years of study.

7th August 2021, 02:23 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Disk space economy ... Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ? Bless you .

7th August 2021, 04:12 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	Gentlemen, This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

7th August 2021, 05:02 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 393	Gentlemen, what a fascinating discussion. Thanks for the skan reference. I love having better descriptive words, I would have used filigree before. Circassian? I'm not sure? Georgian in a Circassian style, though with the skan I don't know if I would even say that. The motifs that aren't skan seem too non-abstractly floral and make me think eastern Caucasus .There is also a chape present, though without a drag, which older Circassian sheaths did not normally have. On the original sheath galloon would have been a Circassian tell. JT, have you been able to inspect the wood in the sheath in any way to see if it is original? On the subject of a block ricasso, could the blade be shortened? How long is it? All in all I would say Russian or made for a Russian considering the essay marks or lack there of. I have read something concerning the neillo motif on the throat stating that this was favored by Russians, but I can't find the reference. Jim has an argument for pre 1896, but my gut says early 20th century Dagestani fittings with an older blade. I would love for some of our Russian friends to weigh in on this subject. Now that I am done throwing out unfounded assertions. Three things popped into my head while reading this thread. 1) Jim in #6 the "watercolor" diagrams show the mountings that carry the blade edge up, but the 1877 does not carry vertically, over all they seem in a 19th century Caucasian style shaska configuration. Was this standard for Russian cavalry at the time, or just specialized for units in the Caucasus region, or simply artistic license? While a vertical carry was said to be good for moving on foot through brush and had obvious edge retention advantages it would seem to a bit of an awkward draw for a guarded saber. 2) Not all silvers tarnish equally. Depending on what the silver is alloyed with, often copper, effects how much the silver tarnishes and how quickly. Apparently humidity and exposure to sulfur have a large role in the chemical reaction as well. 3) I found this sight useful while having internal debates on which ivory I am looking at. https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

7th August 2021, 08:14 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, and as always a total learning experience. It has been for me more of a 'by the numbers' probe into examination of an example from photos alone, so my observations are admittedly rather arbitrary as derived from resources available. I first began to learn about shashkas in around 1993, and through Oliver Pinchot, who honestly knew more about them than I could imagine, and most of it from first hand knowledge through many connections in these and associated regions. Though being disappointed in the outcome, I would not by any means dispute his assessment. I.P. in your post #13, you note the pre 1896 suggestion I made, which I meant to be toward these fixtures in the mounts. It would seem surprising that the silver hallmark would be spuriously applied. Very good note on the chemical anomalies which occur in silver as well. This blade is as agreed an older blade with the running wolf grouping more recently applied. I had not noticed the reverse carry on the Russian swords, and I do not have 'Mollo' handy, but if I recall, the reverse carry was adopted by mounted troops after the Caucasian fashion in the Cossack units. This was I think also put into use in the line units. In the one sword in the drawings the scabbard mounts show the cross type apertures to place the Moison-Nagant socket bayonet from the 1891 rifles. This would suggest infantry if not mistaken. Eduard Wagner, the artist and author of the book "Cut & Thrust Weapons" from which this is derived, was not one for 'artistic license', in fact his penchant for detail was beyond reproach in my opinion. So I would think this interpretation on the carry mounts is correct. At this point I am still unclear on the definition of skan, and still puzzled at the grip and decorative elements in the mounts material. I would also appreciate a more objective description of 'Circassian' style. It seems that the Circassian groups were thoroughly dispersed over much of the western Caucusus transcending regional borders.

7th August 2021, 08:36 PM	#8
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	The grip material may be ivory or it may be bone. The issue isn't about materials; the maker used whatever he had access to and then aged it, more or less cleverly creating something of a patina. The metal may be silver, German silver or even white brass. Any of the forum members who are knowledgeable about Caucasian arms (notably Ariel, among others) will note that only the general form of the sword is Caucasian. The embellishment is vaguely Georgian, with its panels of filigree. The sections of carved ivory, or whatever it is, are decidedly modern-- they have no precise analog in the historical period of production. And as I noted above, the wolf, poor thing, is recent and poorly aged to look antique. the 84 mark is made with a recent stamp, slight differences are identifiable by comparison with period silver stamps. As well-intended as much of the rest of this discussion is, it's frankly pointless. The form of the ricasso, Circassian influence on Georgian work (an existing and interesting type, but there is none whatsoever here) do not enter into the most basic characteristics of attribution: there is, as noted above, no such historical example of this type-- it is simply the modern... imagining... of a craftsman who, like many other Georgians attempting to augment their income in difficult times, engages in cottage industry. He has jeweler's skills, forming, soldering, filigree, carving, engraving and setting. If he can get hold of a blade, he's all set to create. No, I do not have photos, I never thought them worthy of memorializing. I did comment to one bright young guy who was selling these that he was close to making genuinely good copies; why didn't he replicate what he saw in museums and books instead? Marketed as fine copies, he could do well. Too much work, he replied. Tourists have to think they stole a treasure from you. They wouldn't know the difference, anyway.

7th August 2021, 11:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Thank you so much for the detailed explanation Oliver! Collecting in our time, more so than ever before, is perilous as these 'craftsmen' in their cottage work become more skilled. As I have always thought, the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and one never stops learning. The audacious comment by the bazaar seller, says it all, and the thing is...if you're going to buy and collect.....KNOW the difference!

8th August 2021, 02:49 AM	#11
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	JT, we all find ourselves in your situation from time to time. I would urge you to visit a reliable forum (there are many out there,) and perhaps inquire before investing in an antique arm beyond your specific knowledge? It will save you a buck in the long run. This time, just consider it tuition. That's what the rest of us do ;0)