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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:32 PM   #31
bvieira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Looks like the Spaniards give a better account of their sister pattern high end examples. But you now, a larger country, larger museums, greater rust degradations, larger burial sites ... and certainly a lot more private collections.



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The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:15 PM   #32
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Don't forget Spain ruled the Low countries from 1556 thru 1714, and in the latter years with rebellions there, aided by the English, there would have been a lot of Spanish/Portugese swords there, many of which were no longer needed by their previous owners after their demise. Spain also ruled Portugal 1580-1640, and I gather were not above taking souvenirs.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvieira
The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.

I don't think at all that this would have been the case, given their identity.
From top to bottom: the sword of King Fernando, the Catholic, in the Cathedral of Granada; another of Fernando’ swords, in the Real Armería of Madrid; the so called Gran Capitan sword, because of “Gran Capitan” Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, also in the Real Armería; and the sword of the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan of Madrid.
But if your doubts remain ... i am off.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
I don't think at all that this would have been the case, given their identity.
From top to bottom: the sword of King Fernando, the Catholic, in the Cathedral of Granada; another of Fernando’ swords, in the Real Armería of Madrid; the so called Gran Capitan sword, because of “Gran Capitan” Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, also in the Real Armería; and the sword of the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan of Madrid.
But if your doubts remain ... i am off.


And tell me Fernando do they know where they were made ? they are signed ?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:13 PM   #35
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Bruno, you have a PM.


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Last edited by fernando : 22nd February 2021 at 07:42 PM. Reason: spell
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Bruno, you gave a PM.


I invite you to see this video about Infante Henrique from the professor Manuel Gandra, i think after you see the video you will understand my doubts about all what is writed iin history books about this period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8mElQ7H9m4
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Old 22nd February 2021, 11:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvieira
And tell me Fernando do they know where they were made ? they are signed ?

Both swords in Madrid are signed: the one attributed to Fernando el Católico carries the name "Antonius", and the one in the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan is signed "Chataldo" (a.k.a. Cataldo). This name also appears on the sword of Francis I in the Musée de l'Armée, in Paris.

Jehan L'Hermite, who attended the Spanish court between 1587-1602, writes in his Passetemps of three master sword-smiths known as the "Buena Junta" who worked in Cuéllar, in Castile, "one hundred years ago" (so contemporary with Fernando and Francis). He records their names as Antonius, Kataldo, and Piero.

The old smiths of Cuéllar are mentioned in the famous novel Lazarillo de Tormes, published in 1554. Another passage mentions a priceless sword made by Antonio - admittedly a common name.

In a manuscript formerly owned by Íñigo López de Mendoza, 4th Duke of the Infantado (d. 1566), appears an illustration of the markings on "buenas espadas antiguas" which includes those of the "principal masters", Piero, Antonius, and Cataldo, and of their disciples. The illustrated markings attributed to Antonius and Cataldo correspond to those on the surviving swords. The mark of Piero matches that on the papal sword given to Juan II in 1446, which is signed "Pierus me fece". This sword certainly came to Spain from Italy, and predates the supposed Buena Junta... I wonder if the duke's illustration was based on the swords we know today, then in the royal collection, and confuses the work of different Pieros.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 10:34 AM   #38
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A truly excelent enlightening of this issue, Mark. Thanks much for sharing.
I have tried to keep a close picture of Dom Fernando's sword in Granada but the security guy demanded that i deleted it from my camera .
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Old 23rd February 2021, 09:24 PM   #39
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These are a very rare swords !! The sword auctioned posted in past post was my sword circa 7-8 years ago . I think near to be unique as rarity !
I ve seen only two originals of them in last 10 years !! Another one is in a private collection near me ...
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:38 PM   #40
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There are other examples of paintings of these swords in the sometimes called Renaissance-moresque (mudejar) style (the term probably invented by somebody in XIXth century).

For example at Astorga cathedral or Alquezar colegiata. There are plenty of XVth c. gothic tables in the Flemish style but made by peninsular painters with sword armed saints: S. George, S. James, S. Katherina, S. Paul, Archangel Gabriel, A. Michael... Many carry swords in this style. S. Katherina seems to prefer two handed swords thought.

On the other hand, the "bad guys", roman soldiers in resurrection images or martyrs executioners usually carry falchions...
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Old 2nd March 2021, 02:14 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midelburgo
There are other examples of paintings of these swords in the sometimes called Renaissance-moresque (mudejar) style (the term probably invented by somebody in XIXth century).

For example at Astorga cathedral or Alquezar colegiata. There are plenty of XVth c. gothic tables in the Flemish style but made by peninsular painters with sword armed saints: S. George, S. James, S. Katherina, S. Paul, Archangel Gabriel, A. Michael... Many carry swords in this style. S. Katherina seems to prefer two handed swords thought.

On the other hand, the "bad guys", roman soldiers in resurrection images or martyrs executioners usually carry falchions...



I have tried to find the images I mentioned from Astorga (S. Pedro de Verona) and Alquezar (sta Quiteria), but they are not of the mudejar type. So I include three others, two from Zaragoza, A Calvario and a S. Martin. S. Martin is another typical one to find with a nice sword. And a S. Miguel from Huesca. And I throw S. Katharina just for fun.
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Last edited by midelburgo : 2nd March 2021 at 03:05 PM.
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