Balinese Keris Help - Page 2

Rick · 16th March 2005, 10:45 PM

Hi Mans ,

Here are a couple of examples of Bali keris that I have owned .
Yes , the top picture has been flipped .
One of them now belongs to another forum member .
Please forgive the poor quality of the pictures .

Feel free to discuss .

capt.smash · 16th March 2005, 11:59 PM

lovely blades

...what is the top handle made from horn?

Rick · 17th March 2005, 12:45 AM

Yes , cow horn I suspect but I'm not sure ; parts of it are very translucent .

Mans · 17th March 2005, 07:09 AM

Nice Balinese keris, Rick.
Balinese keris with complete Ricikan put into old original Balinese scabbard and hilt. Good ironwork, isn't it ?

I still learning about historical of Bali. Since Bali have a first kingdom, till Majapahit kingdom went to Bali, escape from attackting by Demak Kingdom, and the relationship between Bali and Mataram Sultan Agung, Bugis and Malay. I hope, from histories of Bali, I can know more why the Balinese keris have a characteristic (Jawa : Pasikutan) like that ; longer and more wide than Javanese and Bugisan keris, made from good iron

Perhaps, any members can give me some input about it ?

Actualy, often I need to exchange my Javanese keris with one of Balinese keris

Bu I'm not yet.

Regards
Mans.

Jacob · 29th May 2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

The nice hilt looks like a Tapukan style. Original by Balinese carving. Combinated with brass. It completely hilt.
I was bidding too for this keris at eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESO:IT

.... but I lost it and have no lucky

Beautiful Balinese keris. Congratulations, Jacob.

Regards,
Mans.

Condolences would be more in order. Here is what it actually looks like.
Anyone might have suggestions on how to restore torn silverwork?

VANDOO · 30th May 2005, 04:41 PM

I WOULD SUSPECT THESE KERIS WERE MADE WITHIN THE LAST 60 YEARS THE BLADES MIGHT BE OLDER BUT THE FITTINGS ARE RECENT. HAVING SAID THAT I WILL SAY THAT THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE DOING A GOOD JOB AND THE GOOD RECENT STUFF IS WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE STONES ARE AS MENTIONED REAL BUT COMMON LOW GRADE SPECIMINS THERE ARE RUBYS PROBABLY STAR TYPES WHICH ARE COMMON BUT MOSTLY FLAWED THE GOOD ONES ARE RARE AND EXPENSIVE AND ONLY TO BE FOUND ON THE TOP QUALITY BALI KERIS. THERE APPEAR TO BE TWO WHITE MOONSTONES, 3 RUBYS AND A BLACK STAR SAPPHIRE FROM THAILAND IN HIS BREACH CLOTH WHICH WILL HELP YOU IDENTIFY SOME OF THE OTHERS. THERE ARE SOME BLUE STAR SAPPHIRE AND SOME OTHER STONES I CANT BE SURE OF. THE MEDAK HAS WHAT APPEAR TO BE GREEN STONES POSSIBLY JADE OR IMITATION IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL FROM PICTURES. THE SILVER WORK IS MUCH BETTER ON THE PENDOK THAN ON THE HANDLE, THE VERY BEST QUALITY BALINESE KERIS HAVE BETTER CARVING AND STONES BUT WE WON'T BE SEEING MANY OF THOSE AS I THINK THEY ARE MOSTLY MADE ON COMISSION FOR PEOPLE OF WEALTH. I THINK IT IS A NICE KERIS AND WOULD BE GLAD TO HAVE IT IN MY COLLECTION.

THE KERIS ON EBAY ALSO LOOKS RECENT AND THE HANDLE IS A BLENDING OF TWO TRADITIONAL BALI TYPES AND LOOKS QUITE NICE. THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE VERY TALENTED AND ARE TURNING OUT SOME GOOD WORK AS WELL AS SOME INFERIOR EXAMPLES BUT IF YOU CAN GO FOR A VISIT AND HAVE DEEP POCKETS, YOU CAN FIND SOME EXCELLENT KERIS AS WELL AS OTHER WEAPONS. I SUSPECT SOME OF THE RARE WEAPONS OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE INDONESIAN SPHERE ARE BEING MADE THERE, OR PERHAPS MADE IN OTHER LOCATIONS AND SHIPPED THERE FOR SALE. BALI IS A WORLD MARKET FOR FUN AND SOUVINEERS AND ALL QUALITYS AND BOTH THE REAL AND FABRICATED ANTIQUES CAN BE FOUND THERE. THIS KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND IS NOT A BAD THING BUT AS IT IS EVERYWHERE ELSE, THE BUYER MUST BE CAUTIOUS.

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 08:03 PM

Jacob, it looked fine in the eBay pics. Is this damage that happened in shipping? Was it insured? Is the seller accepting any responsibitlty? Perhaps you can send it back to him fior repair.

Rick · 30th May 2005, 09:18 PM

Not so fast boys ; check out the fifth thumbnail down on the original link.
This pendok was already broken !

Look at all the glue in the other auction pictures .
No doubt it came apart in transit , correct ?
I'd try to put it back together with epoxy and touch up the rip line/s with a suitable silver paint .

I'm so sorry Jacob .

I would think that the Seller should have at least mentioned the break and repair in the description (most do) but this is an ethical fine point .. I guess ...

Live and learn .

Rick · 30th May 2005, 11:29 PM

Bump for edit .

nechesh · 30th May 2005, 11:48 PM

Agreed Rick. Photo #5 certainly shows damage, but i assumed it was just to the pendok and just on that side. None of the photos suggest damage that extreme. It all comes back to the first law of collecting i guess; Let the buyer beware!

BluErf · 2nd June 2005, 03:45 PM

Hi Jacob,

I think you should contact the seller and ask him nicely what he can do with the silver work. I think if he wants to maintain a good long-term relationship (with you and undoubtedly the rest of collectors in this forum

), he would at least offer to help get a new pendok, if not partially offset the cost.

Not to worry, these silver pendoks are common and are too expensive. There are probably 'cottage factories' of silversmiths doing such work.

I would actually say that this keris and many others were refitted within the last 10 years.

mhm27 · 10th June 2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob

Now that the auction is over and it's legal to post: has anyone
seen a hilt like this before (combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman).

I`m new with this, but what i am seeing is very beautiful and wish i could own the keris but i believe that the it`s expensive.

BluErf · 10th June 2005, 05:25 PM

My opinion: The blade is the oldest part of the keris, and I agree its probably mid to late 19th century max. The handle, sheath and pendok are probably all late 20th century work (if you are 'lucky', maybe there were made just a few months before the sale

). The older Balinese pieces rarely had full pendok. Rather, they cover only the back of the batang, exposing the front, which is usually pelet wood. Having said that, I have seen a most fantastic example in the book "Royal Gifts from Indonesia", which shows a Balinese keris with a sandang walikat sheath completely encased in gold sheet, and with the image of Kala embossed/repoussed on it. It was accentuated by many many (>50 I think) jewellery grade diamonds. The hilt was Nava Sari, also in the same high-carat gold sheet, encrusted with numerous jewellery grade diamonds. You need sunglasses to look at that keris or risk going blind.

The sheath of this example we are talking about is made from ebony, as is the handle. Ebony is a popular choice recently because good pelet wood is next to impossible to find. Silver pendok adorned with low-grade sapphire and rubies seemed to be a 20th century affair. The older sheaths rarely had them on the pendok, and the hilts typically use red or black gems, not blue, or even the green you see these days. Silver can be made to look old easily (ie greyish patina).

BluErf · 10th June 2005, 05:26 PM

Sorry, my post above pertains to the discussion on the 1st page of this thread. A bit late, but just my 2 bits.

Rick · 10th June 2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhm27

I`m new with this, but what i am seeing is very beautiful and wish i could own the keris but i believe that the it`s expensive.

There are new ones just like this being made today in your part of the world .

And yes, they are somewhat expensive even in Indo .
Quality is quality no matter whether old or new .

16th March 2005, 10:45 PM	#31
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Mans , Here are a couple of examples of Bali keris that I have owned . Yes , the top picture has been flipped . One of them now belongs to another forum member . Please forgive the poor quality of the pictures . Feel free to discuss . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 17th March 2005 at 01:07 AM. Reason: picture of second keris removed at new owner's request

30th May 2005, 09:18 PM	#38
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hold On A Second ! Not so fast boys ; check out the fifth thumbnail down on the original link. This pendok was already broken ! Look at all the glue in the other auction pictures . No doubt it came apart in transit , correct ? I'd try to put it back together with epoxy and touch up the rip line/s with a suitable silver paint . I'm so sorry Jacob . I would think that the Seller should have at least mentioned the break and repair in the description (most do) but this is an ethical fine point .. I guess ... Live and learn . Last edited by Rick; 30th May 2005 at 11:29 PM.

16th March 2005, 11:59 PM	#32
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	lovely blades ...what is the top handle made from horn?

17th March 2005, 12:45 AM	#33
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Yes , cow horn I suspect but I'm not sure ; parts of it are very translucent .

17th March 2005, 07:09 AM	#34
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Nice Balinese keris, Rick. Balinese keris with complete Ricikan put into old original Balinese scabbard and hilt. Good ironwork, isn't it ? I still learning about historical of Bali. Since Bali have a first kingdom, till Majapahit kingdom went to Bali, escape from attackting by Demak Kingdom, and the relationship between Bali and Mataram Sultan Agung, Bugis and Malay. I hope, from histories of Bali, I can know more why the Balinese keris have a characteristic (Jawa : Pasikutan) like that ; longer and more wide than Javanese and Bugisan keris, made from good iron Perhaps, any members can give me some input about it ? Actualy, often I need to exchange my Javanese keris with one of Balinese keris Bu I'm not yet. Regards Mans.

30th May 2005, 04:41 PM	#36
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD SUSPECT THESE KERIS WERE MADE WITHIN THE LAST 60 YEARS THE BLADES MIGHT BE OLDER BUT THE FITTINGS ARE RECENT. HAVING SAID THAT I WILL SAY THAT THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE DOING A GOOD JOB AND THE GOOD RECENT STUFF IS WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE STONES ARE AS MENTIONED REAL BUT COMMON LOW GRADE SPECIMINS THERE ARE RUBYS PROBABLY STAR TYPES WHICH ARE COMMON BUT MOSTLY FLAWED THE GOOD ONES ARE RARE AND EXPENSIVE AND ONLY TO BE FOUND ON THE TOP QUALITY BALI KERIS. THERE APPEAR TO BE TWO WHITE MOONSTONES, 3 RUBYS AND A BLACK STAR SAPPHIRE FROM THAILAND IN HIS BREACH CLOTH WHICH WILL HELP YOU IDENTIFY SOME OF THE OTHERS. THERE ARE SOME BLUE STAR SAPPHIRE AND SOME OTHER STONES I CANT BE SURE OF. THE MEDAK HAS WHAT APPEAR TO BE GREEN STONES POSSIBLY JADE OR IMITATION IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL FROM PICTURES. THE SILVER WORK IS MUCH BETTER ON THE PENDOK THAN ON THE HANDLE, THE VERY BEST QUALITY BALINESE KERIS HAVE BETTER CARVING AND STONES BUT WE WON'T BE SEEING MANY OF THOSE AS I THINK THEY ARE MOSTLY MADE ON COMISSION FOR PEOPLE OF WEALTH. I THINK IT IS A NICE KERIS AND WOULD BE GLAD TO HAVE IT IN MY COLLECTION. THE KERIS ON EBAY ALSO LOOKS RECENT AND THE HANDLE IS A BLENDING OF TWO TRADITIONAL BALI TYPES AND LOOKS QUITE NICE. THE CRAFTSMEN OF BALI ARE VERY TALENTED AND ARE TURNING OUT SOME GOOD WORK AS WELL AS SOME INFERIOR EXAMPLES BUT IF YOU CAN GO FOR A VISIT AND HAVE DEEP POCKETS, YOU CAN FIND SOME EXCELLENT KERIS AS WELL AS OTHER WEAPONS. I SUSPECT SOME OF THE RARE WEAPONS OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE INDONESIAN SPHERE ARE BEING MADE THERE, OR PERHAPS MADE IN OTHER LOCATIONS AND SHIPPED THERE FOR SALE. BALI IS A WORLD MARKET FOR FUN AND SOUVINEERS AND ALL QUALITYS AND BOTH THE REAL AND FABRICATED ANTIQUES CAN BE FOUND THERE. THIS KEEPS IT INTERESTING AND IS NOT A BAD THING BUT AS IT IS EVERYWHERE ELSE, THE BUYER MUST BE CAUTIOUS.

30th May 2005, 08:03 PM	#37
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jacob, it looked fine in the eBay pics. Is this damage that happened in shipping? Was it insured? Is the seller accepting any responsibitlty? Perhaps you can send it back to him fior repair.

30th May 2005, 11:29 PM	#39
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Bump for edit .

30th May 2005, 11:48 PM	#40
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Agreed Rick. Photo #5 certainly shows damage, but i assumed it was just to the pendok and just on that side. None of the photos suggest damage that extreme. It all comes back to the first law of collecting i guess; Let the buyer beware!

2nd June 2005, 03:45 PM	#41
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Jacob, I think you should contact the seller and ask him nicely what he can do with the silver work. I think if he wants to maintain a good long-term relationship (with you and undoubtedly the rest of collectors in this forum ), he would at least offer to help get a new pendok, if not partially offset the cost. Not to worry, these silver pendoks are common and are too expensive. There are probably 'cottage factories' of silversmiths doing such work. I would actually say that this keris and many others were refitted within the last 10 years.

10th June 2005, 05:25 PM	#43
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	My opinion: The blade is the oldest part of the keris, and I agree its probably mid to late 19th century max. The handle, sheath and pendok are probably all late 20th century work (if you are 'lucky', maybe there were made just a few months before the sale ). The older Balinese pieces rarely had full pendok. Rather, they cover only the back of the batang, exposing the front, which is usually pelet wood. Having said that, I have seen a most fantastic example in the book "Royal Gifts from Indonesia", which shows a Balinese keris with a sandang walikat sheath completely encased in gold sheet, and with the image of Kala embossed/repoussed on it. It was accentuated by many many (>50 I think) jewellery grade diamonds. The hilt was Nava Sari, also in the same high-carat gold sheet, encrusted with numerous jewellery grade diamonds. You need sunglasses to look at that keris or risk going blind. The sheath of this example we are talking about is made from ebony, as is the handle. Ebony is a popular choice recently because good pelet wood is next to impossible to find. Silver pendok adorned with low-grade sapphire and rubies seemed to be a 20th century affair. The older sheaths rarely had them on the pendok, and the hilts typically use red or black gems, not blue, or even the green you see these days. Silver can be made to look old easily (ie greyish patina).

10th June 2005, 05:26 PM	#44
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Sorry, my post above pertains to the discussion on the 1st page of this thread. A bit late, but just my 2 bits.