What is it?????????

ariel · 9th May 2007, 02:20 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010

I am at a total loss...
Looks kinda "genuine", but I can't put my finger on it...

Joe · 9th May 2007, 09:45 AM

Takouba blade mated to a Mediterranean-style handle with a Chinese-style guard.

Or at least, that's about as closely as I can put it.

If I can say anything for certain, it is that the guard, the handle, and the blade all came from three different sources. Blade is definately takouba, the guard screams that its influenced by Oriental designs (could be Chinese, could be Vietnamese, ect.) although the side bars are confusing me, as these do not show up on Chinese swords to my knowledge....

And the handle (canted a few degrees from the center!) is some kind of Mediterranean, but this is really not my specialty, so I'll defer to someone else on that.

Cool find Ariel.

Yannis · 9th May 2007, 10:01 AM

I agree that it looks composite piece. The mystery for me is the guard. Maybe it had another function in a previous life.

M ELEY · 9th May 2007, 10:46 AM

Hmmm... Very interesting! Definately old and definately composite. The blade is the typical Spanish-style 3 grooved type. The crossguard/decorations do look Chinese/Tibetan and the handle either Spanish or colonial Spanish? Old Mexico? It is indeed a mystery piece.

Rich · 9th May 2007, 12:33 PM

The guard is identical in style to those found on Japanese Efu tachi; it
is called a "Shitogi tsuba" - complete with cross guard rings. The rest is
a mystery, certainly not Japanese.

RIch S

katana · 9th May 2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

.... Blade is definately takouba,
Cool find Ariel.

I am not so certain that this is a takouba blade, unusually the stamped/engraved 'half moons' are missing. Unless the blade has been re-pofiled ....Takouba have rounded tips and have little taper.
Very strange sword........... a real 'bitsa'

The three fullers look to be 'ground' rather than chiselled or forged perhaps suggesting a more recent manufacture

Lee · 9th May 2007, 02:01 PM

I notice that the item is being offered from Mexico City. Three fullered blades like these were trade blades of European origin and may be seen mounted in several local styles, takoubas in the Sahara and espada anchas in Mexico. So, the seller may not be totally off the mark with "Spanish colonial" blade, though the dates may be a bit early as the style was produced for a fairly long time. I am at a loss so far as the hilt, but I would guess it is from the Victorian era.

katana · 9th May 2007, 02:14 PM

Good call Rich I found these images of "Shitogi tsuba"
The tsuba (4) ....looks very familiar and is decribed as 19c.....so much for the 17c (1600 -1650) stated by seller

As to the hilt...I would think a representation of a period Greek woman.....perhaps a cut down candle holder....the urn being where the candle would be placed

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2007, 08:50 PM

This 'mystery' sword is as noted, completely composite, and the blade is of course the standard Spanish colonial dragoon blade, as Lee has pointed out.
During the later years of the 19th century, especially after the Civil War, many of these Spanish blades turned up throughout the U.S, whether in fully mounted swords, or the blades alone. It was not at all uncommon to have these blades turn up in Masonic or varied fraternal regalia, and it is well known that Oriental mystery (including Egypt, Japan, China, Arabia etc,.as part of the scope included in the parlance of the times) was often the them for mountings on these swords.
This seems a regalia type sword most likely for either a Masonic tyler or perhaps one of the other fraternal orders, likely early 20th c.
In that sense it is indeed genuine, and mysteriously intriguing!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 9th May 2007, 11:25 PM

Hi Jim

,
thanks for the info. I think your opinion of the age of this sword is about right ....ie early 20th C .....but I wouldn't be surprised if it was mid to late 19c. The overall concept of the sword ...its overall appearance is IMHO some what spoiled by the 'clash' of guard and hilt.....a bit like putting a Picasso next door to a Michelangelo.....ah well beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Regards David

Rick · 10th May 2007, 02:24 AM

IMHO a marriage made in Hell .

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2007, 03:16 PM

LOL!!!

Excellent analogy David!!! and well said Rick

I do agee this could very well be earlier into the 19th c. Without real close examination forensically its hard to tell as judging by form or style has no real benchmark with neoclassic productions.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th May 2007, 06:07 PM

I have taken the liberty to post some pictures of the sword....for future reference.

9th May 2007, 02:20 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is it????????? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010 I am at a total loss... Looks kinda "genuine", but I can't put my finger on it...

9th May 2007, 02:14 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Good call Rich I found these images of "Shitogi tsuba" The tsuba (4) ....looks very familiar and is decribed as 19c.....so much for the 17c (1600 -1650) stated by seller As to the hilt...I would think a representation of a period Greek woman.....perhaps a cut down candle holder....the urn being where the candle would be placed Attached Images

10th May 2007, 06:07 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I have taken the liberty to post some pictures of the sword....for future reference. Attached Images

9th May 2007, 09:45 AM	#2
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Takouba blade mated to a Mediterranean-style handle with a Chinese-style guard. Or at least, that's about as closely as I can put it. If I can say anything for certain, it is that the guard, the handle, and the blade all came from three different sources. Blade is definately takouba, the guard screams that its influenced by Oriental designs (could be Chinese, could be Vietnamese, ect.) although the side bars are confusing me, as these do not show up on Chinese swords to my knowledge.... And the handle (canted a few degrees from the center!) is some kind of Mediterranean, but this is really not my specialty, so I'll defer to someone else on that. Cool find Ariel.

9th May 2007, 10:01 AM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I agree that it looks composite piece. The mystery for me is the guard. Maybe it had another function in a previous life.

9th May 2007, 10:46 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Hmmm... Very interesting! Definately old and definately composite. The blade is the typical Spanish-style 3 grooved type. The crossguard/decorations do look Chinese/Tibetan and the handle either Spanish or colonial Spanish? Old Mexico? It is indeed a mystery piece.

9th May 2007, 12:33 PM	#5
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	The guard is identical in style to those found on Japanese Efu tachi; it is called a "Shitogi tsuba" - complete with cross guard rings. The rest is a mystery, certainly not Japanese. RIch S

9th May 2007, 02:01 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 893	I notice that the item is being offered from Mexico City. Three fullered blades like these were trade blades of European origin and may be seen mounted in several local styles, takoubas in the Sahara and espada anchas in Mexico. So, the seller may not be totally off the mark with "Spanish colonial" blade, though the dates may be a bit early as the style was produced for a fairly long time. I am at a loss so far as the hilt, but I would guess it is from the Victorian era.

9th May 2007, 08:50 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,757	This 'mystery' sword is as noted, completely composite, and the blade is of course the standard Spanish colonial dragoon blade, as Lee has pointed out. During the later years of the 19th century, especially after the Civil War, many of these Spanish blades turned up throughout the U.S, whether in fully mounted swords, or the blades alone. It was not at all uncommon to have these blades turn up in Masonic or varied fraternal regalia, and it is well known that Oriental mystery (including Egypt, Japan, China, Arabia etc,.as part of the scope included in the parlance of the times) was often the them for mountings on these swords. This seems a regalia type sword most likely for either a Masonic tyler or perhaps one of the other fraternal orders, likely early 20th c. In that sense it is indeed genuine, and mysteriously intriguing! All the best, Jim

9th May 2007, 11:25 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim , thanks for the info. I think your opinion of the age of this sword is about right ....ie early 20th C .....but I wouldn't be surprised if it was mid to late 19c. The overall concept of the sword ...its overall appearance is IMHO some what spoiled by the 'clash' of guard and hilt.....a bit like putting a Picasso next door to a Michelangelo.....ah well beauty is in the eye of the beholder Regards David

10th May 2007, 02:24 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	IMHO a marriage made in Hell .

10th May 2007, 03:16 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,757	LOL!!! Excellent analogy David!!! and well said Rick I do agee this could very well be earlier into the 19th c. Without real close examination forensically its hard to tell as judging by form or style has no real benchmark with neoclassic productions. All the best, Jim