Keris for comments

Pusaka · 16th February 2008, 02:59 PM

This just arrived in the post today and would love to know your thoughts on it. I'm not to sure about the age of this keris and also there are some tiny gold specks which have been added to the hilt, don't think they could be original as I cant see the purpose in terms of design.

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2008, 03:47 AM

Pusaka, you've put up a lot of photos, but because of the angles at which they have been shot, it is very difficult to see exactly what we are looking at.

If I may, I offer the following suggestion:-

all you really need are two shots, one of the blade alone, and one close-up of the sorsoran,however, both shots should be taken at as close to 90 degrees to the blade as you can manage; if you can provide these, you may get some opinions.

ferrylaki · 19th February 2008, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, you've put up a lot of photos, but because of the angles at which they have been shot, it is very difficult to see exactly what we are looking at.

If I may, I offer the following suggestion:-

all you really need are two shots, one of the blade alone, and one close-up of the sorsoran,however, both shots should be taken at as close to 90 degrees to the blade as you can manage; if you can provide these, you may get some opinions.

All I can say is this keris dressed in Jogja brangah , but you use a Solo handle and maybe a Jogja mendak. is this a recent made keris?

Pusaka · 19th February 2008, 10:20 PM

Sorry was away from home for a few days so did not have access to the keris.

I'm not sure about the age, I dont think its new though, but maybe you think different?

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2008, 11:42 PM

Oh yes, its an old blade, but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at.

I don't think I'm prepared to take a guess on exactly what this is.

I notice what appears to be two pins in the sorsoran. Do you know what these are? Is it another type of pesi repair or what? Have you had the hilt off?

Possibly the best way to post pics so that the keris can be seen easily and properly is like these two that I have posted.

Pusaka · 20th February 2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yes, its an old blade, but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at.

I don't think I'm prepared to take a guess on exactly what this is.

I notice what appears to be two pins in the sorsoran. Do you know what these are? Is it another type of pesi repair or what? Have you had the hilt off?

Possibly the best way to post pics so that the keris can be seen easily and properly is like these two that I have posted.

The sorsoran has small gold specks on it (what you refer to as pins) As I said, I dont understand the purpose of these in terms of design?? Maybe its to cover up something? I dont think they were part of the original design.

I will take the hilt off and take some photos

Pusaka · 20th February 2008, 10:56 PM

Well took the handle off and noticed the pesi was bent slightly so I decided to remove the ganjah to get a look at the base of the pesi. I believe the keris has been repaired, the surface of the ganjah which meets the blade is silvery showing it has been ground so as to get a flat fit. The gold pin is a little mysterious because gold is a soft metal and a pin made of gold is practically useless as a fixing pin to secure the pesi. The ganjah was also secured via what appears to be modern epoxy resin or liquid metal type bonding agent.

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2008, 11:30 PM

From what I can see this pesi and gonjo look totally original.

I've reposted your pic and lightened it up a bit. You can see clearly the grain of the metal running from blade to pesi.

The slightly enlarged diameter of the base of the pesi is not unusual.

Araldite and similar modern adhesives have been used in the conservation of keris since at least the 1970's. The purpose is to provide a seal against corrosion on the bottom of the pesi and base of the blade. In an old blade like this one it provides the additional advantage of fixing the pesi without running the risk of damaging the pesi by attempting a pressure fit:- there is simply not enough meat in that pesi to give anything like an acceptable pressure fit. When you refit the pesi I suggest you also use araldite.The bright metal indicates preparation for use of the adhesive.

A gold pin will definitely work as a retaining pin on a tightly fitted replacement pesi; you're only looking at retention of something that is already held in place by pressure, and the shear strength of gold is more than sufficient for this purpose.

However, having seen this keris stripped down, I think that we are looking at a protective device with this pin.

Pusaka · 21st February 2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

From what I can see this pesi and gonjo look totally original.

I've reposted your pic and lightened it up a bit. You can see clearly the grain of the metal running from blade to pesi.

The slightly enlarged diameter of the base of the pesi is not unusual.

Araldite and similar modern adhesives have been used in the conservation of keris since at least the 1970's. The purpose is to provide a seal against corrosion on the bottom of the pesi and base of the blade. In an old blade like this one it provides the additional advantage of fixing the pesi without running the risk of damaging the pesi by attempting a pressure fit:- there is simply not enough meat in that pesi to give anything like an acceptable pressure fit. When you refit the pesi I suggest you also use araldite.The bright metal indicates preparation for use of the adhesive.

A gold pin will definitely work as a retaining pin on a tightly fitted replacement pesi; you're only looking at retention of something that is already held in place by pressure, and the shear strength of gold is more than sufficient for this purpose.

However, having seen this keris stripped down, I think that we are looking at a protective device with this pin.

Tkanks for the info, any idea of age?. When you say the gold pin is a protective device do you mean it has some mystical meaning?

A. G. Maisey · 21st February 2008, 08:56 PM

Yes, I believe the gold pin was inserted to provide protection to the wearer against any negative forces emanating from the blade.

As to age, I cannot get a clear feeling for this blade, but in my opinion it is very probably pre-1800. This estimate could change if I were to handle it.

Flavio · 23rd February 2008, 10:20 AM

Hello Alan, I have this keris with a hole near the gangya. Is it possible that in origin the hole was filled with a gold pin? thank you

rasdan · 23rd February 2008, 11:05 AM

Hi Flavio,

If the tang is intact and that small hole does not goes through, it can be a maker's signature. But i have'nt seen a circular one before.

Flavio · 23rd February 2008, 09:36 PM

Hello Rasdan, yes the tang is intact.

P.S. I have checked and the hole is on both sides but it is not passing...

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2008, 06:01 AM

Anything is possible Flavio.

I don't know what this indentation is. No idea. We could guess and hypothesize all we like, but right now we're just looking at an indentation in the blade.

Rasdan, what's the story on "maker's signature"? That's a new one on me. Can you give us the how's, when's, where's and why's of this?

Thanks.

rasdan · 24th February 2008, 04:13 PM

Here's what i know about markings Alan.

The markings normally occur on Pandai Saras and malela blades. I haven't seen one on a Malay blade (like Flavio's keris) before. What i know is that in north eastern part of the Peninsula and southern Thai, some keris blades have specific markings. Some say it is a makers mark, some say it is made if the empu is really satisfied with his work. It is also said to be a mark to distinguish special keris with significant esoteric distinction compared with others. I normally avoid to discuss this topic as it is highly disputable, but all that depends on what we believe.

I dont know when this practice starts. Unlike the infamous "pemangkang jagad" and "retak dagu" formations that is regarded as auspicious, I havent found any written reference that states that these markings on keris blades are regarded as lucky. But, I haven't been reading enough, i presume. Anyhow, they are highly sought after due the scarcity of these blades. Attached are the photos of markings on keris the blades picked from our past threads.

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2008, 09:47 PM

Thanks Rasdan.

This is a new story for me.Never heard it before. I suppose if the practice was limited to a particular area, it could have some truth in it, but it is most certainly out of step with practice in the part of the world that I know.

I remember seeing that criss-cross pattern keris before. My bet is that that is a keris made from a file. Could be an imprint from vice jaws, but I doubt it, the pattern is too distinct.

rasdan · 25th February 2008, 01:08 AM

You are welcome Alan. Yeah, I also thought that it is from a file at first. It looks rather strange.

16th February 2008, 02:59 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Keris for comments This just arrived in the post today and would love to know your thoughts on it. I'm not to sure about the age of this keris and also there are some tiny gold specks which have been added to the hilt, don't think they could be original as I cant see the purpose in terms of design. Attached Images

19th February 2008, 10:20 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Sorry was away from home for a few days so did not have access to the keris. I'm not sure about the age, I dont think its new though, but maybe you think different? Attached Images

19th February 2008, 11:42 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Oh yes, its an old blade, but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at. I don't think I'm prepared to take a guess on exactly what this is. I notice what appears to be two pins in the sorsoran. Do you know what these are? Is it another type of pesi repair or what? Have you had the hilt off? Possibly the best way to post pics so that the keris can be seen easily and properly is like these two that I have posted. Attached Images

20th February 2008, 10:56 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Well took the handle off and noticed the pesi was bent slightly so I decided to remove the ganjah to get a look at the base of the pesi. I believe the keris has been repaired, the surface of the ganjah which meets the blade is silvery showing it has been ground so as to get a flat fit. The gold pin is a little mysterious because gold is a soft metal and a pin made of gold is practically useless as a fixing pin to secure the pesi. The ganjah was also secured via what appears to be modern epoxy resin or liquid metal type bonding agent. Attached Images

20th February 2008, 11:30 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	From what I can see this pesi and gonjo look totally original. I've reposted your pic and lightened it up a bit. You can see clearly the grain of the metal running from blade to pesi. The slightly enlarged diameter of the base of the pesi is not unusual. Araldite and similar modern adhesives have been used in the conservation of keris since at least the 1970's. The purpose is to provide a seal against corrosion on the bottom of the pesi and base of the blade. In an old blade like this one it provides the additional advantage of fixing the pesi without running the risk of damaging the pesi by attempting a pressure fit:- there is simply not enough meat in that pesi to give anything like an acceptable pressure fit. When you refit the pesi I suggest you also use araldite.The bright metal indicates preparation for use of the adhesive. A gold pin will definitely work as a retaining pin on a tightly fitted replacement pesi; you're only looking at retention of something that is already held in place by pressure, and the shear strength of gold is more than sufficient for this purpose. However, having seen this keris stripped down, I think that we are looking at a protective device with this pin. Attached Images

17th February 2008, 03:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Pusaka, you've put up a lot of photos, but because of the angles at which they have been shot, it is very difficult to see exactly what we are looking at. If I may, I offer the following suggestion:- all you really need are two shots, one of the blade alone, and one close-up of the sorsoran,however, both shots should be taken at as close to 90 degrees to the blade as you can manage; if you can provide these, you may get some opinions.

21st February 2008, 08:56 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Yes, I believe the gold pin was inserted to provide protection to the wearer against any negative forces emanating from the blade. As to age, I cannot get a clear feeling for this blade, but in my opinion it is very probably pre-1800. This estimate could change if I were to handle it.

23rd February 2008, 10:20 AM	#11
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Alan, I have this keris with a hole near the gangya. Is it possible that in origin the hole was filled with a gold pin? thank you Attached Images

23rd February 2008, 11:05 AM	#12
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	Hi Flavio, If the tang is intact and that small hole does not goes through, it can be a maker's signature. But i have'nt seen a circular one before.

23rd February 2008, 09:36 PM	#13
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Rasdan, yes the tang is intact. P.S. I have checked and the hole is on both sides but it is not passing... Last edited by Flavio; 23rd February 2008 at 09:49 PM.

24th February 2008, 06:01 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Anything is possible Flavio. I don't know what this indentation is. No idea. We could guess and hypothesize all we like, but right now we're just looking at an indentation in the blade. Rasdan, what's the story on "maker's signature"? That's a new one on me. Can you give us the how's, when's, where's and why's of this? Thanks.

24th February 2008, 04:13 PM	#15
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	Here's what i know about markings Alan. The markings normally occur on Pandai Saras and malela blades. I haven't seen one on a Malay blade (like Flavio's keris) before. What i know is that in north eastern part of the Peninsula and southern Thai, some keris blades have specific markings. Some say it is a makers mark, some say it is made if the empu is really satisfied with his work. It is also said to be a mark to distinguish special keris with significant esoteric distinction compared with others. I normally avoid to discuss this topic as it is highly disputable, but all that depends on what we believe. I dont know when this practice starts. Unlike the infamous "pemangkang jagad" and "retak dagu" formations that is regarded as auspicious, I havent found any written reference that states that these markings on keris blades are regarded as lucky. But, I haven't been reading enough, i presume. Anyhow, they are highly sought after due the scarcity of these blades. Attached are the photos of markings on keris the blades picked from our past threads. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 24th February 2008 at 04:23 PM.

24th February 2008, 09:47 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Thanks Rasdan. This is a new story for me.Never heard it before. I suppose if the practice was limited to a particular area, it could have some truth in it, but it is most certainly out of step with practice in the part of the world that I know. I remember seeing that criss-cross pattern keris before. My bet is that that is a keris made from a file. Could be an imprint from vice jaws, but I doubt it, the pattern is too distinct.

25th February 2008, 01:08 AM	#17
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	You are welcome Alan. Yeah, I also thought that it is from a file at first. It looks rather strange.