The Spanish Motto

Hotspur · 13th April 2024, 03:44 AM

The mystery Bowie sword. Hilt but the rest of the sword is invisible

https://64parishes.org/entry-image/p...t-of-jim-bowie

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2024, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

The mystery Bowie sword. Hilt but the rest of the sword is invisible

https://64parishes.org/entry-image/p...t-of-jim-bowie

Well its an eagle head, but Glen, you'd be the one to say which type (Thurkle etc). I can only imagine that there must be examples that had Spanish motto blades. However, I think some Mexican swords had eagle heads as well, but offhand not sure of details. Bowie was after all a Mexican citizen by marraige, so possible, but this seems American.

Always curious why nobody has ever mentioned swords AT the Alamo.

Hotspur · 14th April 2024, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well its an eagle head, but Glen, you'd be the one to say which type (Thurkle etc). I can only imagine that there must be examples that had Spanish motto blades. However, I think some Mexican swords had eagle heads as well, but offhand not sure of details. Bowie was after all a Mexican citizen by marraige, so possible, but this seems American.

Always curious why nobody has ever mentioned swords AT the Alamo.

Not many officers inside the Alamo. Travis was Texian militia (lawyer by trade) and then. Commissioned as an LC for a cavalry unit, then to The Alamo with army regulars. He likely had something along the lines of an Ames militia officer sword (but that dates badly) or a skinny eagle or Princess pommel, or plain old spadroon and would be from his earlier militia duties, rather than an 1833 dragoon. There is the legend of drawing a line in the sand. Hollywood likes a straight sword for Travis.

Cheers
GC

There were some 1st Empire eagles that might fit the portrait, as I had thought of the old LePage Foghorn Leghorn

midelburgo · 14th April 2024, 08:15 PM

Just some examples of the Halbachs 1775 cardboard real size trade samples, from the Simancas archives.
There are not "no me saques" mottoes among them but the blades are the same you can find with that motto. And the offering letter to king Charles III says he can choose whatever motto he wants.
The offer was rejected for the state owned weapons. But private buyers (officers) could buy them.
No doubt the offer was repeated from time to time, but only the one from 1775 has survived.

The kingdom of Two sicilies has similar pieces.

Jim McDougall · 14th April 2024, 08:23 PM

Well noted Glen. However, these were not circumstances in which guidelines or regulations were being followed overall, despite the fact that most of the men, regular citizens, were simply participating in a quasi military function.
While Travis had some sort of 'appointment' as an officer, like many of these ranks/titles were more 'honorary' than official.
As such, where officers typically had carte blanche as far as uniforms, and swords of course, he might have grabbed a sword from any number of forms that suited his 'fancy' (quite literally).

With this portrait of Bowie, it appears to be a silver hilt eagle head of the crested form, which like most of the earlier types of these were typically made in England and sold to US. This type crested eagle head seems to have been a type of pommel fashioned by Thomas Bate of Birmingham, but used by many of the cutlers there so might have been any number of these Birmingham makers.
These seem to be from the period c.1805 (Mowbray, 1988, p.96).

Inerestingly, an eagle head sword with Spanish motto blade was posted here last year, which with that being the case the sword was thought of course Mexican as they used the eagle element as well. The character of the sword suggests overall it is Mexican, perhaps later than the 1820 period (of the Bowie portrait) and of course the lack of knuckleguard. What is interesting is the character of the hilt, especially the crossguard which recalls the style of some Masonic skull and cross bones hilts. While Freemasonry was notably present in the US, it was as well in Mexico.

Returning to swords at the Alamo, while most of the defenders were civilian, the only 'military' there were essentially militia. The unit that Daniel Boone was with was comprised of a number of volunteers who were formed much as they had been during the War of 1812. In that same manner, the most noted unit at the Alamo were the New Orleans Greys (whose flag may have been actually the only flag flown there in the famed siege). This group was assembled in a meeting in an establishment in New Orleans where also was a storehouse of equipment left from the War of 1812. Many of the men were of course quite young and their fathers had fought in the War of 1812.

With young men, preparing for war, with the hubris and bravado, and recalling their fathers and their service in the earlier war, it seems possible as they outfitted themselves (even to the grey uniforms) that they might have taken swords....the Starr M1812 sabers made for dragoons and militias.
It is known that some of these were used in the 'Texas Revolution' so it seems possible some of these men might have had them at the Alamo as well.

As always, the presence of swords is absent from mention in the otherwise keenly detailed accounts and literature on the Alamo, the classic case of absence of evidence.

While a bit off track from the Spanish motto theme, and this eagle head is clearly not 'crested' as with Bowie's, the example with Spanish motto is of interest .

Just noticed Midelburgo's post...THANK YOU!
These large letters used for the Spanish motto along with the cosmological symbols popularly used on blades with Solingen origin suggesting the 'motto' was in use of course in latter 18th c. . Though rejected 'officially' by the Spanish court, these blades were solicited privately so available to cutlers not only in Spain and Mexico, but perhaps even in the US.
So does Bowie's sword have a Spanish motto blade? who knows" . ?

Hotspur · 14th April 2024, 09:01 PM

I have posted this in the past but there was never an overall shot. I have the old dealer listing through archive.org but it will take time to remember where. Oh yes, David Park. 'Relics of History'. Archived in my drives 2007-2008ish?.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090224.../weapons2.html

Very much an Ames silvered hilt made for Mexico (or use there) but with a typical refit pallasch blade. More photos at the link.

Cheers
GC

14th April 2024, 08:15 PM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	Just some examples of the Halbachs 1775 cardboard real size trade samples, from the Simancas archives. There are not "no me saques" mottoes among them but the blades are the same you can find with that motto. And the offering letter to king Charles III says he can choose whatever motto he wants. The offer was rejected for the state owned weapons. But private buyers (officers) could buy them. No doubt the offer was repeated from time to time, but only the one from 1775 has survived. The kingdom of Two sicilies has similar pieces. Attached Images

14th April 2024, 08:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Well noted Glen. However, these were not circumstances in which guidelines or regulations were being followed overall, despite the fact that most of the men, regular citizens, were simply participating in a quasi military function. While Travis had some sort of 'appointment' as an officer, like many of these ranks/titles were more 'honorary' than official. As such, where officers typically had carte blanche as far as uniforms, and swords of course, he might have grabbed a sword from any number of forms that suited his 'fancy' (quite literally). With this portrait of Bowie, it appears to be a silver hilt eagle head of the crested form, which like most of the earlier types of these were typically made in England and sold to US. This type crested eagle head seems to have been a type of pommel fashioned by Thomas Bate of Birmingham, but used by many of the cutlers there so might have been any number of these Birmingham makers. These seem to be from the period c.1805 (Mowbray, 1988, p.96). Inerestingly, an eagle head sword with Spanish motto blade was posted here last year, which with that being the case the sword was thought of course Mexican as they used the eagle element as well. The character of the sword suggests overall it is Mexican, perhaps later than the 1820 period (of the Bowie portrait) and of course the lack of knuckleguard. What is interesting is the character of the hilt, especially the crossguard which recalls the style of some Masonic skull and cross bones hilts. While Freemasonry was notably present in the US, it was as well in Mexico. Returning to swords at the Alamo, while most of the defenders were civilian, the only 'military' there were essentially militia. The unit that Daniel Boone was with was comprised of a number of volunteers who were formed much as they had been during the War of 1812. In that same manner, the most noted unit at the Alamo were the New Orleans Greys (whose flag may have been actually the only flag flown there in the famed siege). This group was assembled in a meeting in an establishment in New Orleans where also was a storehouse of equipment left from the War of 1812. Many of the men were of course quite young and their fathers had fought in the War of 1812. With young men, preparing for war, with the hubris and bravado, and recalling their fathers and their service in the earlier war, it seems possible as they outfitted themselves (even to the grey uniforms) that they might have taken swords....the Starr M1812 sabers made for dragoons and militias. It is known that some of these were used in the 'Texas Revolution' so it seems possible some of these men might have had them at the Alamo as well. As always, the presence of swords is absent from mention in the otherwise keenly detailed accounts and literature on the Alamo, the classic case of absence of evidence. While a bit off track from the Spanish motto theme, and this eagle head is clearly not 'crested' as with Bowie's, the example with Spanish motto is of interest . Just noticed Midelburgo's post...THANK YOU! These large letters used for the Spanish motto along with the cosmological symbols popularly used on blades with Solingen origin suggesting the 'motto' was in use of course in latter 18th c. . Though rejected 'officially' by the Spanish court, these blades were solicited privately so available to cutlers not only in Spain and Mexico, but perhaps even in the US. So does Bowie's sword have a Spanish motto blade? who knows" . ? Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th April 2024 at 08:35 PM.

14th April 2024, 09:01 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 491	I have posted this in the past but there was never an overall shot. I have the old dealer listing through archive.org but it will take time to remember where. Oh yes, David Park. 'Relics of History'. Archived in my drives 2007-2008ish?. https://web.archive.org/web/20090224.../weapons2.html Very much an Ames silvered hilt made for Mexico (or use there) but with a typical refit pallasch blade. More photos at the link. Cheers GC Attached Images

13th April 2024, 03:44 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 491	The mystery Bowie sword. Hilt but the rest of the sword is invisible https://64parishes.org/entry-image/p...t-of-jim-bowie