Help identifying a blade

delor · 20th February 2011, 06:48 PM

Hello,
I just posted a sword for identification in the "European Armoury" part of the forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13365

Although the fittings of the sword look european, it seems to me that the blade itself looks oriental, maybe a yatagan blade. There is a stamp on the blade, that might be arabic scripting, but I can't tell for sure.
Any idea ?

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2011, 09:20 PM

Good call moving this to European, as I think this is French, however the blade is I believe an Indian sosun pattah blade. I entered more on the European thread.

Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2011, 09:57 PM

Hi Jim,
I believe you are right, at least about the blade. I know very little about European hilts, but it could be French.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Jim,
I believe you are right, at least about the blade. I know very little about European hilts, but it could be French.
Jens

Thank you Jens, it seems like the stamp in the cartouche resembles some tulwars we have discussed, and in about the same location on the blade.

Jim

Gavin Nugent · 21st February 2011, 03:11 AM

Interesting piece, I found a similar one last October with an ivory hilt of a real gnarly shape in exactly the same style and form....My thoughts then were hunting cutlass be it for court dress or use, belonging to Turkish diplomats in European or other courts. They would make for a wonderful stand alone collection....perhaps this example for comparission will better help identify origins and use....

Images below

Gav

Henk · 21st February 2011, 09:36 AM

Very nice piece indeed. Do i see a pattern on the blade that might be directing to a wootz blade worth etching?

delor · 21st February 2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Very nice piece indeed. Do i see a pattern on the blade that might be directing to a wootz blade worth etching?

I have the same feeling. A wootz blade would be a clue for an indian blade, rather than a turkish one. Will let you know if it happens to be wootz !

Gav, thanks for showing this piece. The ornamental part at the base of the blade makes me think of balkanic weapons.

And thanks a lot to all of you for your very usefull help !

delor · 21st February 2011, 09:09 PM

Well, the etching of the blade revealed a twisted multi-bar pattern welded damascus, just like the ribbon of ottoman yatagans.

Gavin Nugent · 21st February 2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

Well, the etching of the blade revealed a twisted multi-bar pattern welded damascus, just like the ribbon of ottoman yatagans.

Looks like I might be on track

, thanks for sharing.

Gav

Norman McCormick · 22nd February 2011, 10:01 AM

Indian blade with similar profile from Bonhams past catalogues.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd February 2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Indian blade with similar profile from Bonhams past catalogues.

Similar profile indeed Norman but it seems only 2/3rd the length at best, akin to a hunting hanger.

Delor, is it possible to see more detail of the two highlighted areas shown in your image here...my photo shop swills are not the best...are the makers stamps? Can you get a good clear profiule shot of the makers mark on the blade too?

Gav

A.alnakkas · 22nd February 2011, 01:58 PM

I think the blade is turkish. I remember seeing Yataghans with similar stamps + i have a Qama with the same stamp. Whats written in it seems to be يا روح which means "O soul" but am not sure since i have the eyes of a mole

beautiful piece non the less.

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd February 2011, 02:39 PM

I also take the line the blade is from yathagan

Hotspur · 23rd February 2011, 12:18 PM

I had posted my Yataghan here and mentioned someone else had regarded the mark on mine to mean Ya Ali but then another response here was it is just Ali. I have seen this mark on a number of blades and it has been mentioned they appear on firearms as well. My blade does seem crucible steel but not patterned in the manner we see above on that very nice assembly of cultures. The mark on the one above seems it may be a different character.

Cheers

GC

delor · 23rd February 2011, 09:18 PM

Some closer photos of the stamps.
I've been said that the first guard stamp is for small silver work in Paris, from 1762 to 1768.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2011, 01:50 AM

Great development on this thread, and good to see all the elements coming together. Gav's astute eye really caught those stamps in the havy motif on the hilt, and the hallmarks seem to work right into the right period, though I would have thought more toward Napoleonic. Still, the French attraction to using these pandour units, which as mentioned on the European Armoury thread, would concur nicely as the yataghan type blade melded with European fashion mounts were commonly used.
As noted, Ottoman blades would have been highly favored, though it is known some yataghan style blades were produced in forged steel by European makers.

20th February 2011, 06:48 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Help identifying a blade Hello, I just posted a sword for identification in the "European Armoury" part of the forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13365 Although the fittings of the sword look european, it seems to me that the blade itself looks oriental, maybe a yatagan blade. There is a stamp on the blade, that might be arabic scripting, but I can't tell for sure. Any idea ? Attached Images

21st February 2011, 03:11 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Interesting piece, I found a similar one last October with an ivory hilt of a real gnarly shape in exactly the same style and form....My thoughts then were hunting cutlass be it for court dress or use, belonging to Turkish diplomats in European or other courts. They would make for a wonderful stand alone collection....perhaps this example for comparission will better help identify origins and use.... Images below Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 21st February 2011 at 03:23 AM.

21st February 2011, 09:09 PM	#8
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Well, the etching of the blade revealed a twisted multi-bar pattern welded damascus, just like the ribbon of ottoman yatagans. Attached Images

22nd February 2011, 10:01 AM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Indian blade with similar profile from Bonhams past catalogues. Attached Images

23rd February 2011, 12:18 PM	#14
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 489	I had posted my Yataghan here and mentioned someone else had regarded the mark on mine to mean Ya Ali but then another response here was it is just Ali. I have seen this mark on a number of blades and it has been mentioned they appear on firearms as well. My blade does seem crucible steel but not patterned in the manner we see above on that very nice assembly of cultures. The mark on the one above seems it may be a different character. Cheers GC Attached Images

20th February 2011, 09:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Good call moving this to European, as I think this is French, however the blade is I believe an Indian sosun pattah blade. I entered more on the European thread. Jim

20th February 2011, 09:57 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Jim, I believe you are right, at least about the blade. I know very little about European hilts, but it could be French. Jens

21st February 2011, 09:36 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Very nice piece indeed. Do i see a pattern on the blade that might be directing to a wootz blade worth etching?

22nd February 2011, 01:58 PM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I think the blade is turkish. I remember seeing Yataghans with similar stamps + i have a Qama with the same stamp. Whats written in it seems to be يا روح which means "O soul" but am not sure since i have the eyes of a mole beautiful piece non the less.

22nd February 2011, 02:39 PM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	I also take the line the blade is from yathagan

23rd February 2011, 09:18 PM	#15
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Some closer photos of the stamps. I've been said that the first guard stamp is for small silver work in Paris, from 1762 to 1768. Attached Images

24th February 2011, 01:50 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Great development on this thread, and good to see all the elements coming together. Gav's astute eye really caught those stamps in the havy motif on the hilt, and the hallmarks seem to work right into the right period, though I would have thought more toward Napoleonic. Still, the French attraction to using these pandour units, which as mentioned on the European Armoury thread, would concur nicely as the yataghan type blade melded with European fashion mounts were commonly used. As noted, Ottoman blades would have been highly favored, though it is known some yataghan style blades were produced in forged steel by European makers.