Gold Keris - Malay with Bugis Influence?

Battara · 12th November 2013, 04:47 AM

Greetings folks.

Rarely do I have much to contribute or ask on this side of the forum, but today I do.

I need your help on identification of this piece - from where, age, purpose, and anything else you see and can help.

The dress is gold, the wood has flashing grains, and the selut is brass. I figure that the blade is older than the rest.

Thank you.

David · 12th November 2013, 02:31 PM

I dunno, it doesn't look Malay (peninsula) to me. Certainly Bugis and i would probably place it in Sulawesi, though admittedly i have had trouble sussing out the nuances from Bugis keris from one location to another.
Better shots of the hilt might reveal more as i can't really get a good grasp of it's proportions in these photos.
I'm not quite sure what kind of answer you are looking for in terms of purpose.
Are you sure the fittings on the sheath are solid gold, not plate?

Battara · 13th November 2013, 04:20 AM

Here are pictures of the hilt, and an emblem on the back of the scabbard that sort of looks like the name "Allah" or perhaps a bismallah.

I will try to test the metal tomorrow and let you know my findings.

David · 13th November 2013, 07:29 AM

After seeing the hilt i am still inclined towards Sulawesi.

Alam Shah · 13th November 2013, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here are pictures of the hilt, and an emblem on the back of the scabbard that sort of looks like the name "Allah" or perhaps a bismallah.

I will try to test the metal tomorrow and let you know my findings.

The hilt looks like a Minang styled form.

The 2nd pic is a calligraphy of "Allah" and "Muhammad", inter-weaved. The 'Muhammad' is a little stylized.

Ganja Iras · 13th November 2013, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Greetings folks.

Rarely do I have much to contribute or ask on this side of the forum, but today I do.

I need your help on identification of this piece - from where, age, purpose, and anything else you see and can help.

The dress is gold, the wood has flashing grains, and the selut is brass. I figure that the blade is older than the rest.

Thank you.

Hi there ,
Here i include this picture as a comparison to your keris.
and i agree with David that the blade looks a bugis sulawesi.
also my blade is buginesse and it was found in sumbawa ,the warangka ,hilt & buntut are ivory.
The pendhok ( metal on the sarung ) is solid gold ; 20 K.
Thanks,

Ganja iras

Battara · 14th November 2013, 03:20 AM

Ok just tested the metal - it's gold plated brass.

This is the last piece of information I can think of.

So we know it is Sulawesi Bugis. Since this is gold plated, I guess this is recent (except the blade) and that this is not for nobility. Would this be then a pusaka piece?

Jean · 16th November 2013, 09:26 AM

Hello,
From the pictures the blade seems old but of common quality (indistinct pamor) and the nice pendok has a contemporary design. The hilt looks old and not Minang IMO but it has a specific design (mix Jawa Deman/ pengulu) probably from East Sumatra but other opinions are welcome.
Best regards

Battara · 19th November 2013, 11:45 PM

Ok.....so.........how common are these gilt dressed keris?

If it is in gilt dress, does this mean it is a pusaka piece?

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 12:26 AM

Is it gilt, or is it gold plate? There is a difference.

My guess is that this is gold plate.

Both are pretty common and at least in Jawa relate more to the owner's wishes than to any regal or vice regal association. I do not know about what might apply in other places.

Battara · 20th November 2013, 03:45 AM

Alan, I mean both and thank you.

Jean · 20th November 2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Is it gilt, or is it gold plate? There is a difference.

My guess is that this is gold plate.

Both are pretty common and at least in Jawa relate more to the owner's wishes than to any regal or vice regal association. I do not know about what might apply in other places.

Alan,
Could you please explain to us the difference between gilt and gold-plated as used in Java? I think I basically know but not in detail.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 12:02 PM

Not as used in Jawa Jean, but rather as we distinguish between the two..

In Jawa they will refer to both as "sepuhan", either would be "sepuh mas". However for us, ie, we bules, we distinguish between something that has been plated with electricity, either heavy technologically superior plating, or market place plating done in little troughs with a car battery, and the various types of true gilding. But then in English we use the same word, "gilt", or "gild" for applying a thin coat or covering of gold to either wood or metal. We have fire gilding, where the gold is dissolved in mercury and the mercury burnt off --- you can still get this done in Solo ---then we have the type of gilding where thin gold leaf is glued to wood, in Jawa this is called "prada" (pron. "prodo").

In the case of this pendok, I raised the question because if it had been gilded rather than plated it would look a lot duller than it does, and very probably metal would have been showing through the gold. This is not the case with this pendok, so I'm almost certain it has plated rather than gilded.

Jean · 20th November 2013, 01:03 PM

Thank you Alan.

Battara · 20th November 2013, 02:19 PM

Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

David · 20th November 2013, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

I guess i'm a little confused. If gilding is thicker why would it be more likely that the base metal would show through as Alan suggests?

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 08:55 PM

Its as I said Jean:- there are various types of gilding. Battara obviously means the type of gilding that is applied to wood, where gold leaf is used, or fire gilding to metal which can also leave a heavy deposit. Have a look at the little gold birds on that pendok I posted a pic of to another current thread:- those birds are fire gilding.

The type of gilding that we find on old pendoks is usually pretty thin. Even when it is electro plate on an old pendok, it will be thin and soft and very subject to wear. They cannot do hard gold plating, or hard silver plating in Jawa, as far as I am aware. The gold plate on your bathroom taps is very hard and does not wear much at all. Then again, sometimes gold and silver plate will be sprayed with a protective lacquer.

There are a lot of processes that we call "gilding" in English, that in Jawa have other names, usually "sepuh mas" for gold to metal and "prada" for gold to wood. There are other names used also in Jawa, but I forget them, because you might only hear that word once in five years.

There is a lot of variation in plating, its not all equal.

Battara · 22nd November 2013, 12:20 AM

Alan is correct.

What I have found is that most gilding is thicker (especially done in the old ways) than plating (which is microns thick). Basically it takes more gold to cover an area, but as Alan said, an occupational hazard is that there can be uneven in application. Plating, though thinner and more easily worn off, is equal in application all over.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd November 2013, 12:26 AM

Another occupational hazard is death.

Fire gilding is done with mercury:- inhale the fumes, you die.

Battara · 22nd November 2013, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Another occupational hazard is death.

Fire gilding is done with mercury:- inhale the fumes, you die.

Very true, very true.

Thus the "Mad Hatter's" disease and therefore why it isn't done much anymore.

Sajen · 23rd November 2013, 03:50 PM

Hello Jose,

my best guess that it is a Sumatra (Riau?) Bugis keris. I also think that the handle show Sumatra influence (Minang, Riau?). Sheath form isn't pure Sulawesi form. Pendok is maybe a more recent addition. Gilded "pendoks" could be simple a sign of wealth but it could be that it was added by a selling purpose.
Still a nice keris.

Regards,

Detlef

12th November 2013, 04:47 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Gold Keris - Malay with Bugis Influence? Greetings folks. Rarely do I have much to contribute or ask on this side of the forum, but today I do. I need your help on identification of this piece - from where, age, purpose, and anything else you see and can help. The dress is gold, the wood has flashing grains, and the selut is brass. I figure that the blade is older than the rest. Thank you. Attached Images

13th November 2013, 04:20 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Here are pictures of the hilt, and an emblem on the back of the scabbard that sort of looks like the name "Allah" or perhaps a bismallah. I will try to test the metal tomorrow and let you know my findings. Attached Images

14th November 2013, 03:20 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Ok just tested the metal - it's gold plated brass. This is the last piece of information I can think of. So we know it is Sulawesi Bugis. Since this is gold plated, I guess this is recent (except the blade) and that this is not for nobility. Would this be then a pusaka piece? Last edited by Battara; 14th November 2013 at 04:00 AM.

12th November 2013, 02:31 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	I dunno, it doesn't look Malay (peninsula) to me. Certainly Bugis and i would probably place it in Sulawesi, though admittedly i have had trouble sussing out the nuances from Bugis keris from one location to another. Better shots of the hilt might reveal more as i can't really get a good grasp of it's proportions in these photos. I'm not quite sure what kind of answer you are looking for in terms of purpose. Are you sure the fittings on the sheath are solid gold, not plate?

13th November 2013, 07:29 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	After seeing the hilt i am still inclined towards Sulawesi.

16th November 2013, 09:26 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello, From the pictures the blade seems old but of common quality (indistinct pamor) and the nice pendok has a contemporary design. The hilt looks old and not Minang IMO but it has a specific design (mix Jawa Deman/ pengulu) probably from East Sumatra but other opinions are welcome. Best regards

19th November 2013, 11:45 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Ok.....so.........how common are these gilt dressed keris? If it is in gilt dress, does this mean it is a pusaka piece?

20th November 2013, 12:26 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	Is it gilt, or is it gold plate? There is a difference. My guess is that this is gold plate. Both are pretty common and at least in Jawa relate more to the owner's wishes than to any regal or vice regal association. I do not know about what might apply in other places.

20th November 2013, 03:45 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Alan, I mean both and thank you.

20th November 2013, 12:02 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	Not as used in Jawa Jean, but rather as we distinguish between the two.. In Jawa they will refer to both as "sepuhan", either would be "sepuh mas". However for us, ie, we bules, we distinguish between something that has been plated with electricity, either heavy technologically superior plating, or market place plating done in little troughs with a car battery, and the various types of true gilding. But then in English we use the same word, "gilt", or "gild" for applying a thin coat or covering of gold to either wood or metal. We have fire gilding, where the gold is dissolved in mercury and the mercury burnt off --- you can still get this done in Solo ---then we have the type of gilding where thin gold leaf is glued to wood, in Jawa this is called "prada" (pron. "prodo"). In the case of this pendok, I raised the question because if it had been gilded rather than plated it would look a lot duller than it does, and very probably metal would have been showing through the gold. This is not the case with this pendok, so I'm almost certain it has plated rather than gilded.

20th November 2013, 01:03 PM	#14
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan.

20th November 2013, 02:19 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

20th November 2013, 08:55 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	Its as I said Jean:- there are various types of gilding. Battara obviously means the type of gilding that is applied to wood, where gold leaf is used, or fire gilding to metal which can also leave a heavy deposit. Have a look at the little gold birds on that pendok I posted a pic of to another current thread:- those birds are fire gilding. The type of gilding that we find on old pendoks is usually pretty thin. Even when it is electro plate on an old pendok, it will be thin and soft and very subject to wear. They cannot do hard gold plating, or hard silver plating in Jawa, as far as I am aware. The gold plate on your bathroom taps is very hard and does not wear much at all. Then again, sometimes gold and silver plate will be sprayed with a protective lacquer. There are a lot of processes that we call "gilding" in English, that in Jawa have other names, usually "sepuh mas" for gold to metal and "prada" for gold to wood. There are other names used also in Jawa, but I forget them, because you might only hear that word once in five years. There is a lot of variation in plating, its not all equal.

22nd November 2013, 12:20 AM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Alan is correct. What I have found is that most gilding is thicker (especially done in the old ways) than plating (which is microns thick). Basically it takes more gold to cover an area, but as Alan said, an occupational hazard is that there can be uneven in application. Plating, though thinner and more easily worn off, is equal in application all over.

22nd November 2013, 12:26 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	Another occupational hazard is death. Fire gilding is done with mercury:- inhale the fumes, you die.

23rd November 2013, 03:50 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,488	Hello Jose, my best guess that it is a Sumatra (Riau?) Bugis keris. I also think that the handle show Sumatra influence (Minang, Riau?). Sheath form isn't pure Sulawesi form. Pendok is maybe a more recent addition. Gilded "pendoks" could be simple a sign of wealth but it could be that it was added by a selling purpose. Still a nice keris. Regards, Detlef