Battara

A very good point Kronckew!

ausjulius

after reading though this discussion, i will just share my general observation at least based on knife making and knife and its economics.


it is no mystery as to why bulat/wootz disappeared with so little fanfare.

the steels made in europe already in the 18th century were superior to other made in the world.

science being applied in their production and treatment..

if you have worked with "smith made" steel you will know why the world became hooked on european steels..

sith made steel is a different surprise every time..
with working tools its always a surprise .. many times a nasty surprise.. which transfers on to the maker of the tools. failures in blades tools ect.. hurt your reputation.

making the superior steel that you were sure of its quality for a thin edge only was the normal practice most tools outside of europe at this time..
wedging it in iron.

time consuming.. a full blade like a sword in a good steel was a very costly item to make..


suddenly you could buy a superior steel in a formed bar or rod for a fraction of the price and it was a reliable material..
you could forge full blade form it for a fraction of the price.


sout east asian blades are a good example ...lamination of tools and smelting of ones own steel stopped almost instantly when european steel arrived.



bulat/wootz became old hat - uninteresting and the new steel pushed it aside.

a bulat blade can not survive the same harsh treatment as the blade of a regular cavalry blade made in 1800 form some reputable european maker.

in a period when swords were still used this becomes completely apparent.

handguns as well replacing edged weapons as status symbols and for personal weapons.

in places where there was a strong cultural or religious tradition for an exotic blade material like japan or indonesia.. or due to isolation like tibet.. laminated or pattern welded blades still remained common...

in india wootz was popular because it was a superior steel.. its pattern was the secondary reason it was popular.. in central asia.. iran... afghanistan it was all the same as well.

wars and chaos. afghanistan. nations in what is now india... iran.. economic disruption ect..
many things changed in this time..

you can also look at glass production.. european production totally surpassed local production at this same time as well.. previously a expensive product became cheap better quality and available to all.

if you collect playing cards . its the same time that european playing cards replaced middle eastern cards as well. mass production... better quality, cheaper price.

this was a period of economic change in the world.

just look at how all these specialized skills died out in europe after ww1 and ww2
just gone over such a short perior.. many of their markets disappeared form one day to the next..

british raj were not buying fine bespoke products any more.. the worlds aristocracy disappeared, there was no wealthy gentry going in safari.. no exotically dressed bodyguards..
ect ect ect..


this can happen in 1 year.. the craftsmen disperse so do their techniques the client network gone... the item will vanish.. and then 100 years later we will discuss it nostalgically.
but its process is lost to us, and we will view it as some mystery. as many of these things take many many small specialized steps.. if things are not performed constantly they are lost in a decade or less.

ariel

Exactly my thoughts.

mahratt

I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons.
But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

ariel

How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"?

And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz?

As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition?

Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments?


Just curious.

mahratt

To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential.
Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

ariel

I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 .
That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that?

Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value.

Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven.

Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant?

Count me out:-)))))

mahratt

The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons .

But, of course, can believe the old dogmas Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research)))))

So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

ariel

Yup, I am into old dogmas of factual evidence.
Please continue your "research" and enlighten us with your "discoveries" when they are ripe enough for informed discussion.
BTW, how is your theory on dating Afghani weapons by the presence or absence of brass elements? Still working on it? I am still intrigued by it.

mahratt

Do not worry. Once an article is finally ready, I will introduce it in English.

And you continue to hold on to the old "information", although as it turns out that often "It’s still all up in the air"

Jim McDougall

This thread is so 'SHAVER KOOL' !!!!!
Yawn!

Rick

The above posts were deleted because they were beneath the level of discourse expected and accepted here.
Just stop.

ariel

After so many years, just an offer of a pleasant read.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.n...LOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

If anybody knows all that had ever been written about wootz and is capable of understanding the intricacies of the topic,- it is unquestionably Ann Feuerbach.
A very short, understandable article about history of wootz research, the search for its composition ( alloy of iron and carbon) that was known at least 20 years before Anosov who is customarily credited for it, and other piquant and not well-known details, areas of uncertainty etc, - in short: read it!
I enjoyed it enormously, and so will you.

Ian

Sorry Ariel. Just reports a string of "Access denied." That link is a total dud for me.

ariel

I checked it after posting it here and it worked. Now it is “ access denied”:-(((
Internet is playing nasty games.

Try go directly to
Ann Feuerbach “Crucible Damascus Steel: a fascination for almost 2,000 years”

mariusgmioc

Thank you Ariel!

With a little effort I managed to download this article and a couple more. Very interesting reading indeed and very easy to read.

ariel

Great!
Can you download it here for everybody to enjoy?

mariusgmioc

I am not sure I am allowed to.

Better let everybody who is really interested download it directly from Ann Feuerbach website on Accademia.

Ann Feuerbach wrote so many more very interesting articles. I also recommend "Indo-Persian Blades in the Collection of E. Gene Beall" (I am reading now one about damascening and koftgari).

https://ncc.academia.edu/AnnFeuerbach