Seldom seen Kilic type

Gavin Nugent · 11th April 2011, 04:12 PM

A Kilij type that usually has a shamshir type blade profile rather than the raised yelman seen on this example.
Silver dress with gilded edges and grip strap, Rhino hilt and original silk and bullion baldric still retaining leather covering in places, leather most likely added for use in a campaign or travel as I'd think the silk and bullion thread would not be covered otherwise but would like to hear from others on this point.
The blade shows a good bold pattern and despite a couple of ugly blemishes that will polish off in an instant, it is free from any pitting. Unsigned but of very good quality and still damn sharp.

I hope it is found to be of interest in its completeness and I look forward to comments, questions, further discussion or other examples.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 11th April 2011, 04:32 PM

Images help

A.alnakkas · 12th April 2011, 10:15 AM

Nice piece! would love to see the blade cleaned up.

ALEX · 12th April 2011, 11:27 AM

Gav, very nice indeed! Pleasure to look at. Thank you.
As for questions, I'd call it a shamshir, not Kilij. Yes, there is "rudimentary" yelman present, but it's a variety or feature of shamshir blade, not to make it a Kilij type. Also, does the hilt show fibrous structure? based on the pictures it's hard to tell rhino or not, the colour is too light and uniform (I could be totally wrong of course)

Gavin Nugent · 12th April 2011, 03:27 PM

Lofty, thank you, and indeed it will see the full cleaning treatment in time.

Alex, thank you too. Being a Turkish it is a Kilij by default, having a raised yelman, more so as many describe a Kilij blade in this manner. To call it Shamshir would be incorrect in the true sense by definition, though I have seen broad Persian trade blades with a yelman but not of this style.
The grip slabs are 110% Rhino horn and the finest, cleanest quality I have seen in some time.

ALEX · 12th April 2011, 04:07 PM

Gav, there are Indian blades with similar "yelman", and they're still called Tulwars:-). Yes, this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? Also, can this be called yelman? It's more of a "partial" yelman with slightly raised point at the false edge border. Without that "point" there would be no yelman.... yeah, I know what can I opened:-)
The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions.
You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool.

Gavin Nugent · 12th April 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Gav, there are Indian blades with similar yelman, and they're still called Tulwars:-). You're right - this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions.
You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool.

Alex, Turkish alone makes it a Kilij ;-) Sword in Turkish = Kilıç / Kilij. The Yelman is typically noted being of early Turkic origins so there is for want of a better word a 'pedigree' there and it is these influences in Mughal India that could account for some of these blades you note in Talwar.

RSWORD · 12th April 2011, 06:01 PM

This is a lovely sword with a fantastic bold wootz blade. It is nice to have such a complete example. I would date the mounts to the late 18th century with the blade probably earlier.

Personally, I would refer to this sword as a kilij. I tend to classify by blade and then hilt. So this example, to me, would be an Ottoman hilted kilij. Having a yelman and a widened blade towards the tip both say kilij to me. Again, this is more of a personal classification and don't know that it is uniformally applied amongst collectors. A shamshir to me is a blade of wedged shape cross section of slight or moderate curvature up to deep curvature but lacking a yelman. The spine is of continuous arc from handle to tip. So in your example of Indian swords being referred to as tulwar, I tend to elaborate a bit more. Let's say it is a shamshir(by my definition) blade. I would refer to that piece as a tulwar-hilted shamshir. With blades being traded, passed along, remounted often, to me the blade deserves its own attribution and then the handle and mounts are separately described or named. Of course, it can get muddied as some blades are not readily classified as either shamshir or kilij. Many Indian blades, for example, are more unique and I may classify them strictly as tulwar as opposed to tulwar hilted unique Indian blade sword.

Gavin Nugent · 25th April 2011, 04:13 PM

The Tughra marking

Another is present on the edge of the drag.

Once photographed in much more detail I'll start looking for an exact match but looking at the short raised lines from the main body and that they are all inline height wise, it shouldn't be too hard to work out....

You can also catch a glimpse of the gilded edges to all fittings.

Gav

11th April 2011, 04:12 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Seldom seen Kilij type A Kilij type that usually has a shamshir type blade profile rather than the raised yelman seen on this example. Silver dress with gilded edges and grip strap, Rhino hilt and original silk and bullion baldric still retaining leather covering in places, leather most likely added for use in a campaign or travel as I'd think the silk and bullion thread would not be covered otherwise but would like to hear from others on this point. The blade shows a good bold pattern and despite a couple of ugly blemishes that will polish off in an instant, it is free from any pitting. Unsigned but of very good quality and still damn sharp. I hope it is found to be of interest in its completeness and I look forward to comments, questions, further discussion or other examples. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 12th April 2011 at 05:21 AM. Reason: additions

11th April 2011, 04:32 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Images help Images help Attached Images

12th April 2011, 03:27 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Cheers Lofty, thank you, and indeed it will see the full cleaning treatment in time. Alex, thank you too. Being a Turkish it is a Kilij by default, having a raised yelman, more so as many describe a Kilij blade in this manner. To call it Shamshir would be incorrect in the true sense by definition, though I have seen broad Persian trade blades with a yelman but not of this style. The grip slabs are 110% Rhino horn and the finest, cleanest quality I have seen in some time.

12th April 2011, 04:07 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Gav, there are Indian blades with similar "yelman", and they're still called Tulwars:-). Yes, this is a Turkish sword, but does yelman alone make it a Kilij? Also, can this be called yelman? It's more of a "partial" yelman with slightly raised point at the false edge border. Without that "point" there would be no yelman.... yeah, I know what can I opened:-) The overall profile, shape and dimensions indicate "shamshir", so it's 3 to 1:-) Would be interesting to hear other opinions. You're right - fine quality rhino hilt, cool. Last edited by ALEX; 12th April 2011 at 04:17 PM.

25th April 2011, 04:13 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Tughra The Tughra marking Another is present on the edge of the drag. Once photographed in much more detail I'll start looking for an exact match but looking at the short raised lines from the main body and that they are all inline height wise, it shouldn't be too hard to work out.... You can also catch a glimpse of the gilded edges to all fittings. Gav Attached Images

12th April 2011, 10:15 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Nice piece! would love to see the blade cleaned up.

12th April 2011, 11:27 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Gav, very nice indeed! Pleasure to look at. Thank you. As for questions, I'd call it a shamshir, not Kilij. Yes, there is "rudimentary" yelman present, but it's a variety or feature of shamshir blade, not to make it a Kilij type. Also, does the hilt show fibrous structure? based on the pictures it's hard to tell rhino or not, the colour is too light and uniform (I could be totally wrong of course)

12th April 2011, 06:01 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	This is a lovely sword with a fantastic bold wootz blade. It is nice to have such a complete example. I would date the mounts to the late 18th century with the blade probably earlier. Personally, I would refer to this sword as a kilij. I tend to classify by blade and then hilt. So this example, to me, would be an Ottoman hilted kilij. Having a yelman and a widened blade towards the tip both say kilij to me. Again, this is more of a personal classification and don't know that it is uniformally applied amongst collectors. A shamshir to me is a blade of wedged shape cross section of slight or moderate curvature up to deep curvature but lacking a yelman. The spine is of continuous arc from handle to tip. So in your example of Indian swords being referred to as tulwar, I tend to elaborate a bit more. Let's say it is a shamshir(by my definition) blade. I would refer to that piece as a tulwar-hilted shamshir. With blades being traded, passed along, remounted often, to me the blade deserves its own attribution and then the handle and mounts are separately described or named. Of course, it can get muddied as some blades are not readily classified as either shamshir or kilij. Many Indian blades, for example, are more unique and I may classify them strictly as tulwar as opposed to tulwar hilted unique Indian blade sword.