English Short Sword - Page 2

katana · 23rd October 2009, 02:16 AM

Just to 'echo' Jim's sentiments....It's been great to see such collaboration and community spirit ......keep up the good work guys

All the best
David

celtan · 23rd October 2009, 02:17 PM

Yep, I agree Katana. It is fun!

BTW G, just polished a small section of the cross-guard, the yellowish tinge was indeed due to patina/oily residues. The hilt is made of white metal.

Take care y'all

: )

M

Atlantia · 23rd October 2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Yep, I agree Katana. It is fun!

BTW G, just polished a small section of the cross-guard, the yellowish tinge was indeed due to patina/oily residues. The hilt is made of white metal.

Take care y'all

: )

M

Bloody hell! Well there's a suprise! I'll let our friend know.

celtan · 23rd October 2009, 06:18 PM

G,

I so much envy your access to civilized museums...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Bloody hell! Well there's a suprise! I'll let our friend know.

Atlantia · 23rd October 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

G,

I so much envy your access to civilized museums...

Well, not so much access for me, I'm at the 'arse end' of the country so can't visit them personally

But, they are State museums, so they do 'belong' to the people

As a socialist, I'd be horrified if they wouldn't help a polite request

I've emailed our Kind Curator to tell her that yours is white metal, and I'll let you know as soon/if she comes up with anything more.

Gene

Bryan.H · 24th October 2009, 01:23 AM

Trawlling through the oldsword.com database (looking for something entirely different!) I came accross this one. The Hilt is virtually identical to the sword discussed here (without the portcullis shell guard), but made by Wilkinson. This example is dated 1853. I'm starting to think of this sword as a 'presentation' blade', similar to private purchase poignards awarded for civillian and military service or excellence.

Item Description (Item Id: 22764)

ANTIQUE 1853 WILKINSON PRESENTATION SWORD
A very unusual and possibly unique sidearm made by Henry Wilkinson and etched on the blade :PRESENTED TO JAMES MONROE BY THE COMPANY JUNE 1853.As there is no reference to the presenter other than the company.it was possibly given by Wilkinsons, to someone conected with them.I have never seen one like it. There are similarities to the military band swords of the period, and it is reminicant of a Royal Scottish Archers sword I once owned a few years ago.The overall length is 26 inches, and the blade is 19 1/2 inches. The fittings are nickle and the grip is rayskin bound with wire.The scabard is leather with nickle mounts.the overall condition is nice,the blade retaining a good polish,with some light staining but no pitting.

celtan · 30th October 2009, 10:50 PM

Hi guys,

Bryan, your finding is (again) crucial. Indeed, it is the same sword. Mine has a loose shell-guard, not fixed to the cross. The date can now be estimated on a definite basis.

Spanish officer swords from 1860 have similar-looking fish-skin grips, plus german ceremonial swords from the late XIX and early XX Cs have similar end points. That was the base for my dating, which now seems +/- right.

Still, the four columned portcullis in the shield may have some bearing on our blade's final identity.

BTW, does anyone have an image of the ricasso's mark for the retailers "E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden" ?

G,. at least your curators answer Qs. : )

Our local equivalents feel threatened by Qs, and defend the secrecy of their armamentariums to the death. Apparently, their only chance to feel the trappings of power is when denying access to their "wards". We call their type "avocados with ties". To add insult to injury, they don't take good care of the collections. Excuse me for seething...

In the local settings, I actively discourage anyone from donating any historical piece to the govt. Private parties take so-much better care of their collections.

Best regards to all, and an interesting Samhain tomorrow....

Manolo

Atlantia · 1st November 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi guys,

Bryan, your finding is (again) crucial. Indeed, it is the same sword. Mine has a loose shell-guard, not fixed to the cross. The date can now be estimated on a definite basis.

Spanish officer swords from 1860 have similar-looking fish-skin grips, plus german ceremonial swords from the late XIX and early XX Cs have similar end points. That was the base for my dating, which now seems +/- right.

Still, the four columned portcullis in the shield may have some bearing on our blade's final identity.

BTW, does anyone have an image of the ricasso's mark for the retailers "E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden" ?

G,. at least your curators answer Qs. : )

Our local equivalents feel threatened by Qs, and defend the secrecy of their armamentariums to the death. Apparently, their only chance to feel the trappings of power is when denying access to their "wards". We call their type "avocados with ties". To add insult to injury, they don't take good care of the collections. Excuse me for seething...

In the local settings, I actively discourage anyone from donating any historical piece to the govt. Private parties take so-much better care of their collections.

Best regards to all, and an interesting Samhain tomorrow....

Manolo

Well, we are nearly there!
The 1853 date of Bryans example fits perfectly with the 'gladius' sized/shaped fashion in military swords, so I'd say you've now got a definate 'mid' 19thC date for yours.

As for museum curators, it's suprising to hear that yours are like 'that'

Also rather depressing!

I'm happy to say that I've always found the museums of the UK to be quite the opposite. Somtimes they don't manage to ID things, but they are usually happy to try. I mean the occasional request of course, not a free valuation and ID service (There are auction houses for that! LOL).

Occasionally I will contact a museum as a last resort. It's going to be something pretty obscure if I do, so I guess they can see I'm not walking in with something they see very often.

I'm actually trying to ID a pair of bronze age/roman British bronze bowls at the moment, somewhat unsuccessfully I might add.

Norman McCormick · 8th May 2017, 09:41 PM

Hi,
Came across some information which may put this to rest i.e. a dealers website with the same item and described as a sword of the Queen's Westminster Rifles. See attached photo of their regimental cap badge.
Regards,
Norman.

24th October 2009, 01:23 AM	#36
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Same pattern... Trawlling through the oldsword.com database (looking for something entirely different!) I came accross this one. The Hilt is virtually identical to the sword discussed here (without the portcullis shell guard), but made by Wilkinson. This example is dated 1853. I'm starting to think of this sword as a 'presentation' blade', similar to private purchase poignards awarded for civillian and military service or excellence. Item Description (Item Id: 22764) ANTIQUE 1853 WILKINSON PRESENTATION SWORD A very unusual and possibly unique sidearm made by Henry Wilkinson and etched on the blade :PRESENTED TO JAMES MONROE BY THE COMPANY JUNE 1853.As there is no reference to the presenter other than the company.it was possibly given by Wilkinsons, to someone conected with them.I have never seen one like it. There are similarities to the military band swords of the period, and it is reminicant of a Royal Scottish Archers sword I once owned a few years ago.The overall length is 26 inches, and the blade is 19 1/2 inches. The fittings are nickle and the grip is rayskin bound with wire.The scabard is leather with nickle mounts.the overall condition is nice,the blade retaining a good polish,with some light staining but no pitting.

8th May 2017, 09:41 PM	#39
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Came across some information which may put this to rest i.e. a dealers website with the same item and described as a sword of the Queen's Westminster Rifles. See attached photo of their regimental cap badge. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

23rd October 2009, 02:16 AM	#31
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Just to 'echo' Jim's sentiments....It's been great to see such collaboration and community spirit ......keep up the good work guys All the best David

23rd October 2009, 02:17 PM	#32
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Yep, I agree Katana. It is fun! BTW G, just polished a small section of the cross-guard, the yellowish tinge was indeed due to patina/oily residues. The hilt is made of white metal. Take care y'all : ) M

30th October 2009, 10:50 PM	#37
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi guys, Bryan, your finding is (again) crucial. Indeed, it is the same sword. Mine has a loose shell-guard, not fixed to the cross. The date can now be estimated on a definite basis. Spanish officer swords from 1860 have similar-looking fish-skin grips, plus german ceremonial swords from the late XIX and early XX Cs have similar end points. That was the base for my dating, which now seems +/- right. Still, the four columned portcullis in the shield may have some bearing on our blade's final identity. BTW, does anyone have an image of the ricasso's mark for the retailers "E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden" ? G,. at least your curators answer Qs. : ) Our local equivalents feel threatened by Qs, and defend the secrecy of their armamentariums to the death. Apparently, their only chance to feel the trappings of power is when denying access to their "wards". We call their type "avocados with ties". To add insult to injury, they don't take good care of the collections. Excuse me for seething... In the local settings, I actively discourage anyone from donating any historical piece to the govt. Private parties take so-much better care of their collections. Best regards to all, and an interesting Samhain tomorrow.... Manolo