Visayan Kris

[VVV]

Recieved this heavy Kris that's collected in Negros.
Any ideas about what the star on the handle could symbolize?
And what is the, almost wootz resembling, pattern on the blade?

More pictures at

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Michael

[kai]

Hello Michael,

And what is the, almost wootz resembling, pattern on the blade?

I realize that it's awfully difficult to photograph steel, especially wootz, but I can't see anything vaguely resembling wootz I'm afraid...

Those specks don't resemble any crucible steel pattern I've seen. Any intentions to polish this blade? This may help to reveal their true nature.

Best wishes,
Kai

[Rick]

Hi Michael,
I suspect the symbolism may be Katipunan .

[VVV]

Thanks for your comments.

Rick, I didn't think about Katipunan on a Visayan sword but maybe the star symbolise Visayas (like on the flag)?
Most of what I read about the Katipunan part of the revolution seems to have been centered to Luzon?
But there was the uprising of Papa Isio and his Tribo Pulahan on Negros. As far as I remember, of the statue of him on the crossroad in Barrio Isio, he didn't carry a Kris however?
Unfortunately I didn't have a digital camera at that time and I haven't been able to find a picture of the statue on the Internet to doublecheck.
But from what I have read he also had some contact with Rizal & Co.

Sorry for the lousy close up Kai. The blade actually is quite well preserved and has a nice grey patina that I don't feel like polish away. The specks you see on the picture are the dominant ones. All over there are several smaller ones that I unfortunately can't seem to catch on a picture.

Michael

[Bill M]

I really like the Negrito kris. Unusual and interesting. Good catch!

I had posted this dagger some time ago and there were comments about it being KKK origins, but I can't find that post.

[VVV]

Thanks Bill,

I see the sun and the three stars. But I haven't seen the sun with a face before, as well as those kind of stars, on Katipunan emblems?
I am sure that some of the other forumites know much more about it.

Michael

[Battara]

I almost bid on that piece.

This is unusual since most of the northern pieces with wavy blades are Illocos Norte in origin. I have only seen these from Illocanos. Thus I question the Negras origin.

On the Katipunan question, the sun with a face is a definite Katipunan emblem and was in fact incorporated later into the Malolos flag when the government as set up around latge 1899. It is a form of Malay sun and the rays in this case represent the 8 original provinces that revolted this last time against the Spanish. Later some of the Visayas revolted, like Bohol island, Negros, etc.

The star in the middle of the hilt in this case -

Bill - yours is the best example I have ever seen (grumble,grumble,envy,envy ). I would add that it may have belonged to a general.

Oh yes, here is that post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002102.html

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Battara

I almost bid on that piece.

This is unusual since most of the northern pieces with wavy blades are Illocos Norte in origin. I have only seen these from Illocanos. Thus I question the Negras origin.

(snip)

The star in the middle of the hilt in this case -

Hi Jose,

I don't have your experience with Luzon Kris.
Those I have seen have more the "usual" sword handle and slimmer blades.
Do you have examples of Illocano Kris that resembles mine?

I am aware of the Filipino flag symbolism but on the star please develop (I don't get it). Do you mean that the star is a sun with 6 rays???

Michael

[LabanTayo]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I really like the Negrito kris.

Bill,
Negrito does not equal Negros.
There are Negritos all over the Philippines and the correct term for them is Aeta.

To call anyone who is from Negros, a Negrito, is not correct.
That is like calling anyone who was born in America, an Indian (which is not correct either).
To call an inanimate object from Negros, Negrito, is not a good thing either.

Remember, Negrito is the term used for the aboriginal inhabitants of the Philippines, not the people of Negros, or as you stated in another thread, the ancestral peoples of the Moros.

The Spanish originally called that island, Negros, because the people were dark.
The inhabitants of Negros now, are either Illongo or Cebuano, with some others, such as Waray-Waray.

I'm surpised the other Filipinos on the board havent corrected you yet.


VVV,
Very nice dagger!!!



This is a Visayan Dagger

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

Bill,
Negrito does not equal Negros.
There are Negritos all over the Philippines and the correct term for them is Aeta.

To call anyone who is from Negros, a Negrito, is not correct.
That is like calling anyone who was born in America, an Indian (which is not correct either).
To call an inanimate object from Negros, Negrito, is not a good thing either.

Remember, Negrito is the term used for the aboriginal inhabitants of the Philippines, not the people of Negros, or as you stated in another thread, the ancestral peoples of the Moros.

The Spanish originally called that island, Negros, because the people were dark.
The inhabitants of Negros now, are either Illongo or Cebuano, with some others, such as Waray-Waray.

I'm surpised the other Filipinos on the board havent corrected you yet.

Hi Shelley,

Thank you for that correction. I will not make that mistake again. There is a lot of misinformation on the net.

I am now glad to know the difference you so well stated.

Regards,
Bill

[LabanTayo]

Bill,
Thanks for understanding.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

VVV,
Very nice dagger!!!

This is a Visayan Dagger

Thanks Shelley,

So is yours.
But mine is not a dagger but a 22 3/8 inch sword, about the same size as an old Barong.
I should maybe have stressed that a bit better in the first post.

Michael

[LabanTayo]

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks Shelley,

So is yours.
But mine is not a dagger but a 22 3/8 inch sword, about the same size as an old Barong.
I should maybe have stressed that a bit better in the first post.

Michael

Michael,
My dagger is 23". I would still consider it a dagger for fighting purposes. Its too short for any real Visayan sword application.
Perfect length for Tai Ing's "Bando Wasso" though.


Shelley

[VVV]

He, he,

I usually refer to it as a sword when it's longer than a forearm.
Maybe that's why it has such a pronounced spear tip, being good for medium and short distance combined slashing and thrusting combos?
For long range however you have to be very fast in footwork and timing to use this Kris.

Michael

[LabanTayo]

Originally Posted by VVV

He, he,


Maybe that's why it has such a pronounced spear tip, being good for medium and short distance combined slashing and thrusting combos?
For long range however you have to be very fast in footwork and timing to use this Kris.

Michael

[Battara]

HI VVV,

Rick (thanks ) resized and posted my Ilocano wavy dagger for me in the previous reply. You can see the pointed and wavy nature of the blade. On the back it says,"Laoag, Ylocos Norte" which is a town in Ilocos Norte.

For the star, I am not saying that the star is the Malay sun, but that the Malay sun with 8 rays coming from it is the final Kapitunan emblem (though there were many). In a different form, this is what is on the Philippine flag today. The star on your piece -

[Spunjer]

vvv

actually your dagger was originally bought in a gunshow in california, i believe, by the ebay seller. he just assumed it was from negros since he's been there.



edit for correction:


my bad, here's a snip from his email:

You know, I don't remember exactly when and where I got this Negros Kris, one of the many shows I used to go to on the Mainland.

so it wasn't necessarily acquired in california.

[VVV]

Thanks J & J,

Then I must have misunderstood Lee on the origin.
I don't think my blade resembles Battara's and LabanTayo's examples that much but if you all think it's more probable of Ilocano origin I am open to that.
If any of you would care to explain your ideas on this sword in f.i. a PM or mail I would greatly appreciate it.

Michael

[Battara]

All of the examples that I have seen that are not Moro have been Ilocano. To my knowledge they are the only ones that have wavy blades outside of the Moroland.

[Lew]

VVV

Here is a kris with a similar dendritic pattern in the steel.


Lew

[Ferguson]

And another different pattern from normal.
Steve

[Lew]

This pic was taken from an old Philippine bolo and even though it looks like wootz the experts say no.

Lew

[VVV]

Thanks for sharing.

Do you have any ideas why those patterns show up on the blades?

Michael