what a kris?

Bill · 6th February 2010, 03:00 AM

Chregu, I really like this kris & would love to have someone tell us it's story. I think I'm pretty close putting this in the 1950's-60's. Prior to WW2, the US confiscated fighting swords. Post WW2 there was a resurgence of traditional weapons but noticeable changes with the interruption of the traditional craftsmanship. The Southern Philippines didn't become heavily armed till the early 70's.
I've got a few mini kris with 4-6 inch blades. One has a plate between the blade & hilt just like yours. The ones I have are clearly worn & could only function as stabbing weapons. I feel they're from the 50's-60's.
I also have 3 little barungs. I guess they could be kitchen choppers but they have traditional appearance but little quality. Can't imagine any use for them except as training blades for boys. They also appear to be from the 50-60's.
It appears your kris has a nice blade but I don't think the rest of the dress is up to par for a nice presentation piece but is quite presentable for daily use; except it just doesn't have enough wear to show someone carried this daily, for years.
Interesting blade, hope there is more input on it.

David · 6th February 2010, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I also have 3 little barungs. I guess they could be kitchen choppers but they have traditional appearance but little quality. Can't imagine any use for them except as training blades for boys. They also appear to be from the 50-60's.

Bill, why have you counted out that these barong might have been made for tourist trade? Why must they be training blades?

David · 6th February 2010, 06:18 AM

I have serious doubts that this is the original hilt for this kris. There are no asang-asang present or a way in which they ever could have been there and it seems doubtful to me that a weapon which is made to be wielded like a kris could simply be attached to the hilt with pitch or some other adhesive and be expected to remain attached in action.

Bill · 6th February 2010, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Bill, why have you counted out that these barong might have been made for tourist trade? Why must they be training blades?

They may very well be just tourist trinkets. If they sell I'm sure someone would make them. Just don't see GI's/tourist buying a blade they can only get 2 or 3 fingers around the hilt.
As far as the stirrups go; a 12" blade isn't going to be a slashing weapon. It may open the skin but it isn't going to hack into the flesh. So if it's a real weapon, this is for stabbing.
I've seen 12" "kris" on ebay in the past. Not often & they are usually very crude. Here is a typical example, referred to at Therion Arms as a gunong dagger: http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c715.html
Were these used as a real weapon? I don't think so. What tourist is going to buy them? Only thing that makes sense is a training sword for small boys. If I'm right, Chregu has the coolest one I've ever seen.

David · 6th February 2010, 05:35 PM

I dunno Bill, perhaps you would be surprised at what tourist would buy. Also this gunong you link too (and it is a gunong because it lacks the asymetric base of the standard keris design) certainly looked a fair sight more attractive for tourists when it was new. Not all "tourist" to the Philippines were GIs, though that was certainly the largest segment of foreigners there around WW2. But the 50's, 60's and 70's brought all kinds of folks to the Philippines for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone who buys a blade is going to be concerned about whether their hand fits the handle if their intention is collection, not actual use.
Chregu's kris doesn't have the pointer profile of a stabbing keris. Look at the earlier "archiac" kris and their thinner, pointier blades. His looks like the larger slashing kris in proportion, just smaller in size, so i don't think this was designed to be a stabbing weapon.

Bill · 6th February 2010, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Chregu's kris doesn't have the pointer profile of a stabbing keris. Look at the earlier "archiac" kris and their thinner, pointier blades. His looks like the larger slashing kris in proportion, just smaller in size, so i don't think this was designed to be a stabbing weapon.

Exactly. & why it's likely a training sword.
If you were to train someone half the size/strength, what would you use?
1/2 the sword. I talked to a soldier who was involved in the conflict in the south before & after the outside influences supplied firearms. There was no mistake he feared/respected the krisman the most. He claimed he never saw anyone survive wounds from a kris attack. To be that effective, there has to be many years of training.
A recent clan conflict just left a staggering amount of dead. They have been going on forever. Not to mention many different militas & bandits.
Training your boy, in that time period wouldn't be for recreation but necessity that be would have the skills to protect himself & family/clan.
As you say Chregu's kris would appear to be ineffective as a stabbing weapon or as slashing weapon. It would be a great little slasher, for little hands against a stuffed, hanging rice sack with instructions on effectively using the cutting edge to its greatest abilities.

David · 6th February 2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

As you say Chregu's kris would appear to be ineffective as a stabbing weapon or as slashing weapon. It would be a great little slasher, for little hands against a stuffed, hanging rice sack with instructions on effectively using the cutting edge to its greatest abilities.

Perhaps, but as pointed out previously, why both with all that inlay work for a practice sword?
And again, i will say that it is unlikely this is the original hilt. Even if "little hands" were doing the slashing this would still require some asang-asang to secure the blade properly. Sorry if i misunderstood you, but i thought you were arguing earlier that this blade was a stabbing weapon, not a slasher because of it's length.

Bill · 6th February 2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps, but as pointed out previously, why both with all that inlay work for a practice sword?
And again, i will say that it is unlikely this is the original hilt. Even if "little hands" were doing the slashing this would still require some asang-asang to secure the blade properly. Sorry if i misunderstood you, but i thought you were arguing earlier that this blade was a stabbing weapon, not a slasher because of it's length.

I'm fairly sure that is a Tausog hilt from the Sulu area. Funny, but the kid that trained on that sword may very well still be around & one of the few that could tell us if it's original to the sword & why. If the sword is Tausog, those are fiercely independent people. While the US decreased involvement post WW2, there was a control vacuum created & the people in the south didn't want it filled by Manila. I can see nobility-class folks wanting to re-establish power & impress others. If indeed this is a training sword, it's a pretty impressive one.
I really don't think the asang-asang would be important for a kids sword, he'd probably knock it out of his hand before he'd loosen the blade. I've got several fighting kris where each stirrup is two pieces. One piece fitted around the blade & then a metal strip, looped & inserted next to the tang & into the hilt. Strictly show, no function.

6th February 2010, 03:00 AM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Chregu, I really like this kris & would love to have someone tell us it's story. I think I'm pretty close putting this in the 1950's-60's. Prior to WW2, the US confiscated fighting swords. Post WW2 there was a resurgence of traditional weapons but noticeable changes with the interruption of the traditional craftsmanship. The Southern Philippines didn't become heavily armed till the early 70's. I've got a few mini kris with 4-6 inch blades. One has a plate between the blade & hilt just like yours. The ones I have are clearly worn & could only function as stabbing weapons. I feel they're from the 50's-60's. I also have 3 little barungs. I guess they could be kitchen choppers but they have traditional appearance but little quality. Can't imagine any use for them except as training blades for boys. They also appear to be from the 50-60's. It appears your kris has a nice blade but I don't think the rest of the dress is up to par for a nice presentation piece but is quite presentable for daily use; except it just doesn't have enough wear to show someone carried this daily, for years. Interesting blade, hope there is more input on it.

6th February 2010, 06:18 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	I have serious doubts that this is the original hilt for this kris. There are no asang-asang present or a way in which they ever could have been there and it seems doubtful to me that a weapon which is made to be wielded like a kris could simply be attached to the hilt with pitch or some other adhesive and be expected to remain attached in action.

6th February 2010, 05:35 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	I dunno Bill, perhaps you would be surprised at what tourist would buy. Also this gunong you link too (and it is a gunong because it lacks the asymetric base of the standard keris design) certainly looked a fair sight more attractive for tourists when it was new. Not all "tourist" to the Philippines were GIs, though that was certainly the largest segment of foreigners there around WW2. But the 50's, 60's and 70's brought all kinds of folks to the Philippines for all kinds of reasons. Not everyone who buys a blade is going to be concerned about whether their hand fits the handle if their intention is collection, not actual use. Chregu's kris doesn't have the pointer profile of a stabbing keris. Look at the earlier "archiac" kris and their thinner, pointier blades. His looks like the larger slashing kris in proportion, just smaller in size, so i don't think this was designed to be a stabbing weapon.