black sea yataghan

CourseEight · 21st January 2008, 05:09 PM

Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan, I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan.

Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled?

Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 07:39 PM

I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article.
Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons.

There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated.

It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons.

Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

CourseEight · 21st January 2008, 08:02 PM

Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa.

By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion.

Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 09:30 PM

Hi Radleigh,
I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations.

I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence.
Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 21st January 2008, 10:02 PM

Gentlemen,

I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan?

The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 10:32 PM

Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade.

As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least!

It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM

OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced.
The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others.
My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue.
As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual".
As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages"

BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

21st January 2008, 05:09 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan, I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan. Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled? Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated! --Radleigh

21st January 2008, 07:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article. Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons. There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated. It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons. Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons! All very best regards, Jim

21st January 2008, 08:02 PM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa. By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion. Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure! --Radleigh

21st January 2008, 09:30 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Hi Radleigh, I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations. I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence. Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions. All the best, Jim

21st January 2008, 10:02 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Gentlemen, I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan? The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

21st January 2008, 10:32 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade. As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least! It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel. All best regards, Jim

22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced. The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others. My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue. As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual". As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages" BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.