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Old 15th July 2006, 04:20 AM   #1
sabertasche
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Default New Keris - It Spoke to me and said Help - Now What??

Hi all, please take a look at my newest purchase. I've looked at this keris for over 3 years and the dealer had had it for over 10 years, His father had purchased it for a Dutch Canadian in the 60's. The label on the price tag said Sumatra Keris ca. 1850, scabbard ca. 1900. The price was high and even after a more than 50% discount it was still high.

This blade spoke to me, it said " Save Me". Now I've read much about the mysticism associated with Keris and do not believe all of it but I do believe my "6th sense" . It is only money right?

Now I already have a nice but new Keris (see the photes) but this latest addition has some age to it. How should I take care ir it?

The handle seems glued on. Any thoughts on how to loosen it. The brass cup thing does rotate slightly. If I were to add some 3-in-one oil to the tang, whould this loosen the handle? Any thoughts?

Finally, I've got to help and feed this blade. It really needs a loving hand to take care of it.

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Old 15th July 2006, 04:22 AM   #2
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More Scans.

Tx Greg
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Old 15th July 2006, 06:02 AM   #3
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First keris Sumatra. Second keris Bali.
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Old 15th July 2006, 07:56 AM   #4
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Greg,

That Sumatra keris looks very good.

Is the ukiran really glued on the peksi? Usually a piece of cloth is winded around the peksi and then the ukiran is attached to the blade. But there are some id.... walking around freely who use glue to attache the ukiran on the peksi .

I suppose you tried to rotate and draw the ukiran to remove it. A good way to remove a glued ukiran is to put the blade with the ukiran in the furnace that has a temperature of 150 or 175 degrees. Just heat the piece in this way for a few minutes and try to rotate the ukiran. When you can do that the glue is losening and you can remove the ukiran and the glue from the ukiran and the peksi.

Two important things: Wear heat resistance gloves when you do this. The Mrs. use those things to pick up the scales with delicious prepared dinner, so don't cut with the blade into her gloves and certainly not less important: wait till she is going for shopping or working before using her furnace for these things. She won't like it

You better should oil the blade with keris oil. The blade looks very fine and oiling preserves this condition. Don't use to much oil. You can wipe it of with a cotton cloth and enough oil is left to preserve the blade. When the blade is dry again after some time, could be after some months or after a year, oil again.
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Old 15th July 2006, 12:09 PM   #5
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Is that a really big Summatran keris or a small Bali? Or some kind of optical illusion? I am referring to the picture of them together.
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Old 15th July 2006, 03:34 PM   #6
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The hilt ring of the bugis-influenced blade seems too big for the hilt. However, overall it's a nice keris. Congratulations!

Last edited by Alam Shah : 16th July 2006 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 15th July 2006, 07:18 PM   #7
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Bill

I suspect that the Balinese Keris is a small one. It is a new piece and the workmanship on the blade is not especially fine.
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Old 15th July 2006, 10:26 PM   #8
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Hi all, here is a size comparison of the two Keris in my collection. Still no luck trying to get the hande off the larger keris. It is possible that they used a resin to secure the two parts? I'm a little hesitant to heat up the two to soften the resin and get the handle off.

Maybe the handle has shrunk onto the handle???

Greg
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Old 16th July 2006, 01:06 AM   #9
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I'll raise the voice of semi ignorance here and say that to me the entire piece looks Buginese ... except for the ukiran .

Just what makes this ensemble Sumatran ?

Educate me guys .
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Old 16th July 2006, 03:00 AM   #10
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Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis. Its very difficult to put down in writing what the differences are, and I would admit, you probably won't be able to tell all the differences from looking at 2D pictures.

Blade-wise, the forging technique and material and very similar, though Sumatran Bugis kerises tend to be finer. Sulawesi kerises are generally more 'awkward' looking, but of course, there are always exceptions.

1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis
2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis
3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis
4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis
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Old 16th July 2006, 04:10 AM   #11
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Blade-wise, it looks more like a Straits Bugis blade. But then, the Bugis did move quite a bit within the Malay Archipelago that it had influenced Sumatra, Peninsular Malay and Riau blade forms. A subtle clue that could tell them apart is the blade materials used. The cross-section and some minor details can assist too but not definitively. It had been discussed before that, to classify the breakdown by region is near impossible due to the mix and match across the archipelago.

Last edited by Alam Shah : 16th July 2006 at 02:39 PM. Reason: remove link... (simplify)
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Old 16th July 2006, 07:45 AM   #12
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Yes I agree much confusion keris Sumatra and keris Bugis. This keris from Pak Sabertasche is Sumatra and not Bugis. Second keris is keris Bali. Pak BluErf say

Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis.

Sorry but no thing like Sumatran Bugis. Bugis only south Sulawesi people.

Sorry also I not agree with picture words

1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis
2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis
3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis
4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis

All these keris from Sumatra. No keris here Bugis.

If I make problem I am sorry. For me no mistake keris Bugis asli with keris Sumatra asli. They are cousins family but enough difference to see. OK to not believe what I say. Ask someone else from Indonesia that know keris what they say.
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Old 16th July 2006, 11:48 AM   #13
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The Bugis were originally from South Sulawesi, and their cousins were the Toraja people, who had actually the closest linguistic links with the Bugis, and the Makassar people, who shared the closest physical proximity with the Bugis so much so that many people used the words "Makassarese" and "Bugis" interchangeably. Though some people may have read that the Makassarese from Goa were constantly fighting with the Bugis from Bone for supremacy, sometimes in league with other Bugis kingdoms who do not want a strong Bone dominance over their kingdoms.

If I remember correctly, in 1669, the Dutch destroyed the Goa power and turned it into a Dutch controlled port, which is part of their monopolistic trade network in spices and ther natural materials of the archipelago. From that date onwards, the spread across the archipelago, creating a Bugis diaspora, especially in the Western side of the archipelago, since the Eastern side near the Maluku islands were controlled by the Dutch.

The Bugis featured heavily in court intrigues and politics on the Malay Peninsula and on Sumatra. They can be found on the Eastern side of Sumatra, all the way up to Acheh. Some Bugis went to Kalimantan, even before the fall of Goa. Some Bugis even went as far as Papua and Cambodia.

The Johor-Riau empire was half Malay, half Bugis, with a Malay Sultan and a Bugis YTM (Yang diperTuan Muda, or Young Lord) who effectively controlled the Bugis half of the Kingdom. Riau can probably be considered part of Sumatra. The Bugis also established themselves in the Malayan states of Johore, Selangor (the Sultans there are both Bugis), and with strong influence in Kedah and Perak, possibly spilling into Terengganu. And of course, we have Bugis people in Singapore; some of our collector friends here are proudly Bugis.

The Bugis diaspora meant that there was a general division of the Sulawesi Bugis (which in itself had lots of sub-divisions), and the "Straits Bugis" who established themselves along the coasts of the Straits of Melaka. Bugis keris forging techniques infused itself well in the areas where they are found. In the South Malayan states, you would find more Bugis-type blades and the more North one travels, other non-Bugis forms start to appear (the most famous being the keris Pandai Saras and carita and melela kerises which probably have Javanese ancestry, but that is another discussion in itself.).


Here's an interesting read:

http://www.sabrizain.org/malaya/dutch3.htm
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Old 16th July 2006, 11:58 AM   #14
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Pak BluErf many thanks for what you write. I enjoy reading very much.
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Old 16th July 2006, 12:00 PM   #15
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These are good resources too:

Description of the Royal family of Riau
http://4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/riau.htm

Description of the Royal family of Lingga
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/lingga.htm

Description of the Royal family of Selangor
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/selangor.htm

Description of the Royal family of Johore
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor2.htm
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Old 16th July 2006, 12:09 PM   #16
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For the Johore Royal family, might be better to start at this page:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor4.htm
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Old 16th July 2006, 12:34 PM   #17
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In the previous post, the page describes the first sharing of power between the Malays and the Bugis in 1722 when the Minangkabau pretender to the Johore throne was defeated and chased back to Sumatra where he continued to fight the Bugis.

Then finally in 1855, Johore was ceded to the Bugis Temenggong Ibrahim, from whom the the current Sultan is descended from.

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor9.htm
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Old 16th July 2006, 01:14 PM   #18
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Thank you Gentlemen ; I'm glad I asked the question .
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Old 16th July 2006, 02:31 PM   #19
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Thanks Kai Wee, for answering this question in such a well researched and academic manner.
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Old 16th July 2006, 07:01 PM   #20
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Default How to Melt Resin

Hi all, I think I've canme up with a way to get the handle off my new keris. I plan to heal the Blade in my BBQ. I can leave the blade in the BBQ and have the handle outside wraped in tin foil. My goal is to heat it up enough to loosen the resin not bake the blade. I'll post so pics and let you know how it all works out.

Greg

PS I wanted to thank all the members in the Forum for the great info.
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Old 16th July 2006, 07:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudi
Yes I agree much confusion keris Sumatra and keris Bugis. This keris from Pak Sabertasche is Sumatra and not Bugis. Second keris is keris Bali. Pak BluErf say

Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis.

Sorry but no thing like Sumatran Bugis. Bugis only south Sulawesi people.

Sorry also I not agree with picture words

1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis
2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis
3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis
4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis

All these keris from Sumatra. No keris here Bugis.


Pak Mudi , if I might ask ; would you please show us a picture of a Bugis keris that fits your definition ?
I would be most interested to see .

Greg , let us know how the BBQ removal attempt works out .

I'm thinking of trying boiling water to get the heat up into the pesi ; I have a Sumatra Minang keris with a stubborn ukiran much like yours .
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Old 16th July 2006, 08:02 PM   #22
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Hello Greg,

You can also try using a hair dryer - covering the hulu (hilt) by holding it with a heat resistant glove and pointing the air stream towards the blade tip can help to minimize adverse effects on the wood/etc. While heating up the base of the blade, try repeatedly to loosen up the tang mainly by turning the hilt (with not too much force); sometimes repeated heating/cooling cycles can do the trick with stubborn blades (more often than not it's mere rust rather than resin).

Regards,
Kai
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Old 16th July 2006, 10:43 PM   #23
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G`day Sabretasche.

Sorry I didn`t get here sooner, but been a bit tied up the last few days.

Handle removal from any keris is deadset easy. You`re going the right way by thinking heat, but your proposed method is a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack peanuts.

What you need to do is to apply heat directly to the sorsoran---the wide area of the blade directly below the gonjo. You can use a candle, or a small kerosene lamp for this. Just play the flame over both sides of the sorsoran while you hold the blade with a few layers of cloth, and apply back and forth twisting pressure to the handle. You can clean all the soot off later with mineral turpentine.

If you are 100% familiar with the use of a propane torch, this is quicker, cleaner and easier. Put the torch in a vice, and play the flame over the sorsoran, but if you are not used to using propane, you can easily overheat the blade.So careful.

Truly, it is only a five minute job even if you use only a candle.

However, be warned:- once in a while the tang will be so rusted that it will break during the process. This is no real big deal, tangs are easy to repair, but it does destroy the originality of a blade. The argument is that if the tang was so rusted that it broke, it was going to break sooner or later anyway, and by breaking now it just allows the opportunity for restoration a little earlier, but its still not a nice feeling if you find it gives way under your hand and you`re left with half an inch of tang, or worse still, no tang at all.

I don`t like hairdryers to supply the heat, because they are too slow, and throw the heat around too much, especially up towards the handle.Any heat source will work for you, but what I have described is easy and fast.If you do strike a real stubborn one, what Kai suggests in heating and cooling cycles even over a few days, can be of assistance.
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Old 13th August 2006, 11:23 AM   #24
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Default Warung Kopi...

Hi, what is the outcome of the hilt removal?
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:09 AM   #25
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Hi Guys, sorry to be tardy in replying. The blade came off woith out any problems. The "glue" melted partly, I was able to twist off the handle and remove the glue plug. The plug was slightly rubber-like but as it cooled it became quite hard and plastic like. It really is amazing stuff.

The handle has a nice smell - almost sweet. Sandalwood? The tang shows a twisted profile. There was no wound fabric around the tang.

I'm on holidays right now so I can't post some pics. I post them next week.

Greg
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