Gills Britah manufacturing sword

[phil.reid]

Chaps,
What have I just bought, ricasso marked Gill's and GILL British Manufacturing ?? Is this an old Victorian copy as I can't see Gills writing this on there blades.

[Jim McDougall]

This is pretty phenomenal Phil!
A British dragoon sword with the relatively rare triangular knuckleguard in the semi basket hilt. Clearly all the components are old and original however what is baffling is that this blade is later than the hilt.

This is an entirely correct Thomas Gill blade typically seen on dragoon officers swords of 1788+ and the inscribed forte is exactly the format he used .
Thomas Gill was in business as sword maker 1778 until his death in 1795.
His family continued the business into early years of 19th c. as per Brian Robson (1975).

He was a fierce proponent of the superiority of the British blades over the ever ubiquitous volume of German blades that dominated supply to British cutlers.
This led to his vehement contest of blade testing with his blades and three other British bladesmiths against the German blades (typically brought in by JJ Runkel from Solingen). This became known as the 'sword scandals' in the latter 1780s and led to his adding the word WARRANTED to his inscription on the blade.
The WARRANTED term was also added on the spine of cavalry blades on his 1788 model examples.

This hilt however is generally held to be British dragoon c. 1755, into perhaps 1760s, however does not seem to have prevailed into end of 1770s .
This example might be one of Gills earliest swords though! as there is no defined date etc. ending those hilts which certainly might have remained in use in certain cases.

What is needed is an example of Gills earliest blades, and did he use this dramatic 'advertising' panel at forte in his earliest work? contrary to the typical convention of British makers with block letter name on spine of blade.

You MAY be onto to something here Phil!

[phil.reid]

Fantastic! I was hopefully but the odd fonts had me confused. I thought the back edge was to worn to read but there is some lettering ending in a D

[Jim McDougall]

I forgot to add the forte inscription. This was distinct Thomas Gill, who was quite a promoter, and so much so he pretty much infuriated his competitor James Wooley.
He was the one who began emblazoning 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL' on his blades, a convention soon followed by some of the other makers after the 'sword scandals'of the 1780s.

This sword is truly an anomaly, as I mentioned, these hilts were a munitions grade type of half basket dragoon sword distinctively Birmingham, and most typically seem to have been by Samuel Harvey about 1755, into possibly 1760s. The form does not seem to have been overly prevalent as there were of course other types. Thomas Gill, who is not recorded as making swords until 1778, even if perhaps several years earlier, still seems a gap.
As always, it is hard to define how long certain hilts remained in use, and if they might have been refitted later from stores as required.

I have one of the Black Watch style basket hilts of c. 1750s and these were turned in c. 1783 when infantry mostly no longer carried swords .....mine seems to have been refitted with a M1788 light cavalry saber blade. I have seen I think 2 other examples like this which suggests it was not entirely unusual to have earlier hilts remounted with newer blades, though unclear what circumstances.

[Peter Hudson]

https://landandseacollection.com/id564.html Shows some excellent swords from this stable. The Sword shown (SOLD)is an excellent example of a Naval Officers Hanger..Gill marked his blades with a capital G as shown.

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Adding to my previous post ...
This type of weapon, which was preferred
by Naval Officers, is well documented in various sword collecting books such as Bill Glikerson’s, “Boarder’s
Away“ on page 120-121, who discusses a similar sword known to be Commodore Preble’s fighting sword (1797-1805).

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Peter!
Gill was indeed a famed maker, who pretty much changed the texture of the sword industry in England. If I recall , there was some confusion on these 'G' marks and these were on swords exported to America, much to do with 'eagle head' swords, with Gill very much at the fore.

[phil.reid]

G and GG stamps on all my Osborns, not a GILL stamp

[Peter Hudson]

I agree ! Some of Gills swords have a G many do not. Some have the name in capitals..GILL.some do not and there is even a peculiar griffon on some blades but again not on all. As you note Jim the often placed mark of "warranted never to fail " is seen on his weapons. It's a weak excuse to suggest that many blades were changed in those days thus ommissions can be expected...Some Gill swords went to America and I saw one that had returned to England with a modified pommelin the form of a miniature George Washington. To muddy the waters even more it may be noted that Naval Swords in the UK never got the name Cutlass untill after about 1804 when that weapon became produced by/on behalf of the Amiralty...
It is however true that in studying English sword making Gill deserves a long hard look as his swords were like jewels in a goldmine...and stand as prime weapons in the British Armoury along with Harvey and others plus of course Shotley Bridge Swords.

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Peter, good notes! However going back through research , Andrew Mowbrays "The American Eagle Pommel Sword" (1988) and the 'unthinkable', using the search here I found some interesting things.

In a brisk discussion between Bryce and Glen(2018), two of the local specialists here IMO of British and American swords, they revealed some most intriguing details, well supported by their in depth research:

ALL Osborn blades have G or GG, with no determination as to why these letter 'G' are singular or paired. Suggestions are made that perhaps the GG came after Osborn partnered with Gunby in 1808, nothing substantiates this . These letters seem to occur on officers sword blades, but not as far as seen on the troopers sword blades. As these are typically at the very highest part of the ricasso, so not easy to see with the langets typically on troopers hilts.

Osborn seems to have ended the convention between 1810-1816.

GILL: This is most disturbing, as Mowbray (1988, p.97, c.1805) states the 'G' was the house mark for Gill? All indicators at this point claim, as noted, NO Gill blades have a G.

There are notes that early, that O over a G occurs on an 1808 blade (Osborn&Gunby? Mowbray. p.112)while an 1805 blade (p.105 Mowbray) has a deep 'O';
On p.104,p.102 either O or Ob thought Osborn.

None of the other makers/cutlers (Gill and Osborn produced blades while others were typically cutlers) had these letters on blades, yet all were exporting swords to America.

One blade in this period has the number 12 in the same blade location.
On some occasions it seems I have seen a '3' on Gill blades.

So what we have here seems to be some sort of administrative system in blades being produced and exported to America with these makers. There was a notable commerce in these swords between England and America in the period 1794-1830s. It is important to remember that American colonists were still basically British culturally after the Revolution into early 19th c.and American industry and commerce was not yet well developed in many cases.
So British swords and blades were notably exported to America by Gill, Osborn, and a number of other makers at least until 1820s.

Interesting note on the term cutlass, and while pretty much everywhere the terms hanger and cutlass seem to have been interchanged almost invariably, aside from the Spanish....who had the term machete interpolated in the same capacity. Seems odd the British resisted the cutlass term so late and all sorts of speculation might be added here.

Gill is the only maker who used 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL' on his blades, but others followed suit but more briefly with 'WARRANTED' alone.

Not sure on the changing of blades note, but it seems the reuse of blades and swords held in stores or rendered obsolete by changing patterns was well established. The M1796 saber was so ubiquitous that by the time it was superceded by the M1821 (1829) these ended up everywhere, America, India, Germany produced their own version the M1811 Blucher etc.

The 1821/1829 heavy cavalry saber when replaced by 1853 were in Tower stores and made into practice swords, even attempt to make cutlasses.
same was done with numbers of M1796 heavy cavalry in Tower, attempt to make into cutlasses but most of these destroyed in fire there.

Getting back to the original subject, this Gill blade on an unusually earlier style hilt, it is not unusual to see earlier hilts with later blades. In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are many later blades mounted on earlier hilts.
All conundrums.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

ALL Osborn blades have G or GG, with no determination as to why these letter 'G' are singular or paired.

Minor correction here Jim, but Henry Osborn initially stamped his blades with a crown over the letters HO. This changed somewhere around 1797 as there exists a 1798 dated Osborn sword with the G stamp.

My 1796 LC officers by Osborn is stamped with the Crown over HO proof.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

None of the other makers/cutlers (Gill and Osborn produced blades while others were typically cutlers) had these letters on blades, yet all were exporting swords to America.

I'm not sure if I read your sentence correctly, but officer blades produced by Dawes typically have an S stamp on the ricasso, close to the tang. This is not evident on his trooper swords.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Jim and I forgot to give a nod toward Phil Read in my last post...Anyway out of interest I looked at https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...2a&action=view
Which is a very entertaining view by Matt Easton who compares two Spadroons of the Napolionic period and talks about sword design of this form in the context of 1896 ...What I found interesting was the style of Ivory hilt on one pattern being compared which esentially parallels in the hilt to the first sword I show on this thread (see post 5 above.) ... and which is by John Gill...that also includes his catchphrase Warranted Never to Fail...I thought to include his debate on the pros and cons of each as relevant to the Gill form. Thus members may look this up ...
Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Minor correction here Jim, but Henry Osborn initially stamped his blades with a crown over the letters HO. This changed somewhere around 1797 as there exists a 1798 dated Osborn sword with the G stamp.

My 1796 LC officers by Osborn is stamped with the Crown over HO proof.



I'm not sure if I read your sentence correctly, but officer blades produced by Dawes typically have an S stamp on the ricasso, close to the tang. This is not evident on his trooper swords.

Thank you for this key information! and correction is excellent, not only much appreciated but very much sought after.
I had not known of the Osborn letter stamping on blades, which in this case obviously stood for Henry Osborn (HO)

As Osborn was the key figure in working with LeMarchant in developing the M1796, which was of course the first 'regulation' British cavalry sword, it seems reasonable that date period would stand.

The switch over to the 'G' on the 1798 sword is curious.....this must have been an officers blade of course as the date is noted.

It does not seem this convention of forte letter stamping is much understood, nor for that matter typically discussed in most references.
Obviously the letters would be presumed initials of the maker, i.e. G for Gill? HO for Henry Osborn............but then it seems the G and GG are predominate on Osborn blades.......not so much on Gills?


There are letters noted in Robson, such as E= Enfield as well as S=Solingen.
While Dawes was producing troopers M1796 swords.......it seems that blued and decorated blades for officers were being imported from Solingen and perhaps that might account for the S ?

I guess we are getting away from the original topic here, which was centered on establishing proper markings on swords by Thomas Gill.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson,
Which is a very entertaining view by Matt Easton who compares two Spadroons of the Napolionic period and talks about sword design of this form in the context of 1796 ...What I found interesting was the style of Ivory hilt on one pattern being compared which esentially parallels in the hilt to the first sword I show on this thread (see post 5 above.) ... and which is by John Gill...that also includes his catchphrase [B

Warranted Never to Fail[/B]...I thought to include his debate on the pros and cons of each as relevant to the Gill form. Thus members may look this up ...
Regards, Peter Hudson.

Thank you Peter!
These 'spadroons' are typically I think considered a 'pattern' of 1786 (unofficially) and were popular infantry officers swords which also became well known in naval contexts as well. Part of the unique hilt decoration included 'five spheres' giving the collectors rendition 'five ball or bead hilt) though there were of course variations.

I personally had not known of examples of these with blades by Thomas Gill so seeing one with said blade is interesting for me , though I am certain not to specialized collectors.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The switch over to the 'G' on the 1798 sword is curious.....this must have been an officers blade of course as the date is noted.

As Bryce notes elsewhere, the G stamp is only fond on officer blades, Osborn and later Osborn and Gunby do not appear to have marked their troopers swords in this manner. Interestingly the Crown over HO appears to have been used on trooper swords as well, the Royal Armouries have several examples of a '1780s light dragoons sword' marked with that stamp.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It does not seem this convention of forte letter stamping is much understood, nor for that matter typically discussed in most references.
Obviously the letters would be presumed initials of the maker, i.e. G for Gill? HO for Henry Osborn............but then it seems the G and GG are predominate on Osborn blades.......not so much on Gills?

I think we need to accept that this far back in time, at least regarding swords, there were very few conventions to speak of. It wasn't until 1788 that we see the 'universal' sword regulations for troopers with the procurement moving from the regimental captains to the Ordinance board. The first official stamp is the crown over broadarrow sometimes seen on 1788 trooper swords:



This changes with the 1796 patterns (presumably as the process is improved ) when it becomes a crown over an inspectors number:



Again, no universal practice appears to have been applied with trooper swords being found without the inspector stamps and officer swords with them. The theory being that inspection was done before the blades were hilted.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There are letters noted in Robson, such as E= Enfield as well as S=Solingen.
While Dawes was producing troopers M1796 swords.......it seems that blued and decorated blades for officers were being imported from Solingen and perhaps that might account for the S ?

I believe this practice started later than the period we are discussing (Thomas Gill Snr and John Gill), around the 1850s? Certainly Victorian era trooper swords have much clearer markings on them than the Georgian era swords. I don't think we should look at Victorian markings and apply those same ideas back to earlier times since we are looking at a progression of procurement practices as the army continues to evolve and 'modernaize'.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I guess we are getting away from the original topic here, which was centered on establishing proper markings on swords by Thomas Gill.

All the Thomas Gill Snr marked swords I have seen are clearly marked with his name and branding. Even on a smallsword where there isn't much space on the blade, he manages to get his message across

But I haven't seen any use of letter stamps. Only Henry Osborn and on a limited series of swords Sammual Dawes appear to have used the practice. And then predominantely on swords intended for commercial sale rather than government sales.

Tho Gill's Warranted never to Fail (1796 Pattern light cavalry sword):


Notice that there isn't an ordinance board stamp, so it could be private purchase for a Yeomanry troop or similar.

Three generations of Gill:

Elizabeth Gill (widdow of John Gill) - 1796 LC Officer named to Oldham Yeomanry Cavalry (OTYC).
John Gill - 1796 LC troopers sold to Dutch service.
Thomas Gill - 1796 LC troopers.

[toaster5sqn]

Auckland War Memorial Museum has an 1751 pattern British infantry hanger with a Gill blade. As with the OP's sword this hilt predates the blade, by the time Gill was making blades the use of infantry hangers was finished or all but.

[Peter Hudson]

see https://www.jbmilitaryantiques.com.a...2-1320x969.jpg

for examples of 5 ball hilt with pillow pommel and reeded grip ...This grip was exceptional for accurate allignment of the sword point.

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Radboud, these notes and observations are outstanding and I thank you so much for detailing them out so well, and well illustrated . While I have good familiarity with British military swords you and Bryce have truly focused on these kinds of peculiarities well...........busily adjusting notes!

It is these kinds of posts that become so valuable in our archives here, and essential in future research as more examples come into these pages.

It truly is interesting to see, as you well note, the 'conventions' really were not consistant before 1788 and the later regulation patterns and protocols.

Toaster, excellent example in perfect accord with the OP, earlier form hilt on later Gill blade, thank you.

Peter, great and unusual example of the five ball hilt. These are typically termed spadroons for the straight SE blades they were mounted with, so this saber blade is an anomaly. ....excellent perspective!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Auckland War Memorial Museum has an 1751 pattern British infantry hanger with a Gill blade. As with the OP's sword this hilt predates the blade, by the time Gill was making blades the use of infantry hangers was finished or all but.

Hi Robert, thanks for sharing this sword; very pertenant to the discussion. From memory the blade was marked I. Gill, which was how John Gill marked blades of his production (I the latin equlivent for J).

When Thomas Gill Snr died in 1801, the business was taken up by his three sons, Thomas Jnr, James and John. They operated in partnership until March 1802 when it was disolved. At this time the business continued to sell swords but it is not known if they produced new blades or simply sold pre-existing ones made under Thomas Snr.

Below is an example of one such blade, and to my eye it looks like the original makers name has been over stamped:



Of the three brothers; while they all intermittently sold swords, only John continued to produce sword blades until his death in February 1817, marking his blades I.Gill. This helps dates the production of that blade to between 1802 and 1816.

[Bryce]

G'day Phil,
I have seen a 1788 pattern heavy cavalry officer's sword marked to Gill with exactly the same format as yours. On the ricasso is marked "GILL'S British Manufacture". Along the blade spine is marked "WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL 1792".
I guess this dates your blade to around the same time. The question is, has the blade been added to an older hilt? What does the peen look like? I am not very familiar with that style of hilt, apart from knowing it predates the 1788 patterns.

On the subject of the "G" stamp, just to reinforce what has already been said, this mark was used by Osborn and then Osborn and Gunby on their officers' sword blades. It was never used by Gill.

Cheers,
Bryce

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Bryce

On the subject of the "G" stamp, just to reinforce what has already been said, this mark was used by Osborn and then Osborn and Gunby on their officers' sword blades. It was never used by Gill.

Cheers,
Bryce

Thank you for joining in Bryce.

Other than the stamps already mentioned (Crown over HO, G and GG for Osborn and the rare S for Dawes) are you aware of any other makers using similar markings?

[Bryce]

G'day Radboud,
I have also seen swords of a similar vintage to the Crown over HO marked Osborns, that have a Crown over TG mark. Maybe this was used by Thomas Gill, but I haven't yet found one with a corresponding Gill mark to confirm this.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

In accord with the case with earlier hilts paired with later blades, this is a c1750 munitions grade British basket hilt of the form produced by Jeffries and Drury in London. These were known to be used by the Black Watch as well as several other infantry units.
At the end of the American Revolution the carrying of swords by infantry units effectively ended, with numbers of these swords of course being put into stores. At some point it appears several of these were paired with M1788 light cavalry saber blade......by whom or for whom is unclear.

I recall many years ago in my quest for the presumed M1788 heavy cavalry sword, which of course had the straight single edged dragoon type blade (despite the light cavalry moving to the hussar type saber).......I found an example of the claimed hilt form...basket type hilt. However, this had a heavy, curved saber blade.
Soon I decided this, with curved blade, did not seem quite proper for the example I needed (as per Robson, it was about 1977) so I let it go.

These are examples of hilts paired incongruently with other blades, and in particular the c. 1750s hilt mounted with 1788 light cavalry saber blade.

It would seem of course that these kinds of pairings might have to do with yeomanry units perhaps, or traditionally held hilts given newer blades.
Whatever the case, it does not seem an altogether unusual instance.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Radboud,
I have also seen swords of a similar vintage to the Crown over HO marked Osborns, that have a Crown over TG mark. Maybe this was used by Thomas Gill, but I haven't yet found one with a corresponding Gill mark to confirm this.
Cheers,
Bryce

You've probably seen mine, a few owners down the road.

[Bryce]

Yeah that is one of them. You haven't noticed a GILL mark anywhere on it have you? It may be marked GILL on the tang like the early Osborn examples.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Bryce

Yeah that is one of them. You haven't noticed a GILL mark anywhere on it have you? It may be marked GILL on the tang like the early Osborn examples.
Cheers,
Bryce

I've never taken it apart. I had seen it decades ago. I grabbed it from ebay and the seller got it from a previous auction. bought it for the form, over the marking.

Cheers
GC