New forged keris for review

[Anthony G.]

Hi fellow collectors

I would like to hear from you in term of quality, overall setup etc for this new keris. Personally I found it 'ugly' or unpleasant.

[Jean]

The pamor Jarot Asem Wengkon (?) is very finely made IMO.

[A. G. Maisey]

The pamor is brilliant.

The rest of this keris is out of proportion, poorly carved and just plain ugly, in a word:- kaku.

[Gustav]

And here for comparison the original Keris, auctioned earlier this year.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Gustav

And here for comparison the original Keris, auctioned earlier this year.

This is awesome piece, majo era keris?

[A. G. Maisey]

and what a difference we have, the original is something pretty nice, just the difference in detail & proportion destroys the copy.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

and what a difference we have, the original is something pretty nice, just the difference in detail & proportion destroys the copy.

very true. I supposed the base of the bilah is kind of too 'wide'.

[David]

Well, i'm jumping on the "ugly" train here as well. As stated, the pamor is pretty brilliant, but the rest of this keris is just not attractive.
Another thing that i find disturbing is the way the pamor simply runs right over the ganan figure on the gandik rather than working with the contours of the carved figure there. This figure also seems stiff and cartoonish compared to the original model. The greneng seems to not understand how ron dha should be shaped.

[A. G. Maisey]

maybe the angle of the photograph has contributed a lot to this perception of ugliness, I feel that if this photo had been taken with the camera positioned 90 degrees at mid-blade, & with a small F-stop we might be seeing something different here.

[Anthony G.]

What Alan remarked is true indeed and I have asked for more photo to be given.

[Battara]

I'm with Alan. I love the pamor but not too crazy about the dapor.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm OK with the dhapur, what turns me off is the execution, when the photo was taken from a bad angle that misrepresented proportion, and that compounded the less than good effect, but now that has been fixed the overall impression is really not so bad.

[Interested Party]

Are these the same blades? Very close.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Are these the same blades? Very close.

Yes, it is the same with the brass plating motif having warangan removed.

[Jean]

Personally I don't like the carving & plating of the singa, and the greneng

[David]

For me the "kinatah" seems to solve part of the problem i was having with the way the pamor cut so abruptly into the Singo.
There are still executions problems from my perspective with the greneng form as well as the gonjo itself which seems to lack the gracefulness i expect to see in gonjo wilut.
I also agree with Alan that the perspective with which the original photos of this keris were shot was problematic and the overall dhapur does indeed look better in the later photos.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

For me the "kinatah" seems to solve part of the problem i was having with the way the pamor cut so abruptly into the Singo.
There are still executions problems from my perspective with the greneng form as well as the gonjo itself which seems to lack the gracefulness i expect to see in gonjo wilut.
I also agree with Alan that the perspective with which the original photos of this keris were shot was problematic and the overall dhapur does indeed look better in the later photos.

The craftsman who does it probably is a young lad lacks of experience :P

[jagabuwana]

Something about this comparison is reminding me of discussions in art and music regarding what the essence of the art really is, and what makes something pleasing or beautiful. Granted the keris isn't visual art as its commonly understood in the West but I think it's still apt.

In music something can be overplayed. A very good musician might come in hard and fast with something very technically complex to show her skill but the lack of restraint is perceived as tasteless or not complementary to the song as a whole.

This is similar to how we are seeing a lot of extremely talented artists who are able to paint scenes or objects that are photorealistic. The skill and execution is undeniable and awesome - but is it art? Is it beautiful? Imagine a respectable institution running a gallery of photorealistic paintings, where from a distance you thought you were just looking at high-res iPhone photography. To me that doesn't inspire much beauty or feeling.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Something about this comparison is reminding me of discussions in art and music regarding what the essence of the art really is, and what makes something pleasing or beautiful. Granted the keris isn't visual art as its commonly understood in the West but I think it's still apt.

In music something can be overplayed. A very good musician might come in hard and fast with something very technically complex to show her skill but the lack of restraint is perceived as tasteless or not complementary to the song as a whole.

This is similar to how we are seeing a lot of extremely talented artists who are able to paint scenes or objects that are photorealistic. The skill and execution is undeniable and awesome - but is it art? Is it beautiful? Imagine a respectable institution running a gallery of photorealistic paintings, where from a distance you thought you were just looking at high-res iPhone photography. To me that doesn't inspire much beauty or feeling.

Hi

Pardon me as I am not a native English speaker. I got problem trying to understand your comments. Could you kindly tell me the meaning in a simple way?

Many thanks.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

This is similar to how we are seeing a lot of extremely talented artists who are able to paint scenes or objects that are photorealistic. The skill and execution is undeniable and awesome - but is it art? Is it beautiful? Imagine a respectable institution running a gallery of photorealistic paintings, where from a distance you thought you were just looking at high-res iPhone photography. To me that doesn't inspire much beauty or feeling.

I wonder, Jaga if AI is going to make photo-realistic art a thing of the past and no longer relevant in art circles.

[milandro]

due to the many TV shows on blades' forging, the popularity of this skill is increasing wildly and the showmanship too.


Some people are artists but some are showing off something they learned and are able to produce.

The exchange of information is now incredible and people can attend courses and learn techniques in many countries in the world.


In the end one has to value things on their own merit each and every time.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder, Jaga if AI is going to make photo-realistic art a thing of the past and no longer relevant in art circles.

Well, photography didn't bring an end to painting in a realistic manner, so i doubt AI will.

[Rick]

I suppose the Horse left the barn in the 1600's when the camera obscura was invented.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Hi

Pardon me as I am not a native English speaker. I got problem trying to understand your comments. Could you kindly tell me the meaning in a simple way?

Many thanks.

Sure thing Anthony.

What I said was that this discussion reminds me of a similar discussion in art and music. Imagine music where a very good musician plays really fast to show off, but it can feel like too much. Similarly, some artists can paint things so realistic that they look like photos of the real thing. It's very impressive, but is it really art? Sometimes, things that look too real don't feel as special.

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder, Jaga if AI is going to make photo-realistic art a thing of the past and no longer relevant in art circles.

I don't think so, Rick. There is something awesome about a person being able to paint or draw photorealistically, but when it comes to aesthetics I don't consider it to be something that evokes beauty.

[Anthony G.]

[QUOTE=jagabuwana;284244]Sure thing Anthony.

What I said was that this discussion reminds me of a similar discussion in art and music. Imagine music where a very good musician plays really fast to show off, but it can feel like too much. Similarly, some artists can paint things so realistic that they look like photos of the real thing. It's very impressive, but is it really art? Sometimes, things that look too real don't feel as special.

I got it, thanks for the clarifications.

[SidJ]

No one here seems to be the least bit annoyed or bothered by this blatant copying of a unique piece? Was the consent of the owner sought? It's distasteful to do this in my view.

[Rick]

I've seen this woven pamor some time ago in our pages; if the dhapur is within a recognised pakem I can't really see any reason to be offended by the form.
I am not aware of any design copyright being claimed by whoever developed this particular pamor.

Why should I be offended.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Rick

I've seen this woven pamor some time ago in our pages; if the dhapur is within a recognised pakem I can't really see any reason to be offended by the form.
I am not aware of any design copyright being claimed by whoever developed this particular pamor.

Why should I be offended.

Agreed and this new forged keris belonged to me made by a Madura well-known smith who are responsibile for this type of unique pamor. I asked him to forge this keris based on an ancient old keris design.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by SidJ

No one here seems to be the least bit annoyed or bothered by this blatant copying of a unique piece? Was the consent of the owner sought? It's distasteful to do this in my view.

If you don't wan't your Keris to be copyied, don't post the pictures of it on internet.

Jokes aside, copying was and is the most important part of learning process and creativity probably in every traditional culture, explicitly so in Eastern and Southeastern Asian cultures. I for myself am more annoyed and bothered about the ideal of Art schools in the Western world - everybody must be an artist with an unique language after his study at the age of let's say 25. This idea appears everywhere in Western world where creativity is concerned and not only there, and still determines some of the most fundamental differences between Eastern and Western peoples characters.

Regarding this special Keris and the original one, a part of the problem here could be that the smith was working with a couple of pictures, he never had the original in his hand. Not all people are equally talented to translate two-dimensional objects back to three -dimensional. The other thing is of course if somebody is able to understand what exactly makes out the harmony of a good blade, and not to destroy these things. Here maker's approach was too individualistic, his own character was the barrier not allowing him to make a harmonious blade. Rougly at the same time there has been made another copy of this particular Keris, by another maker, who followed the original much closer, and did have a better understanding of why exactly the old blade does work.

[SidJ]

Gustav you are right about folk pinching posted images of rare kris or other swords and seeking to make copies. I have seen this done with kukris where firms steal / take images posted online at the behest of clients who want something similar and then make multiple copies and offer these for sale. These are always very inferior to the original given the limitations of copying from a 2D image often distorted by camera angle etc. It has resulted in collectors not sharing or posting images of rare pieces online on closed forums like this. The consent of the owner of the image has not been sought nor the source acknowledged at all. Its plagiarism for profit plain and simple in my ethical framework. Some would say imitation is the highest form of flattery though. Nonetheless the point on intellectual copyright and ownership of the images copied remains and although legally the issue is moot, broader ethical considerations on this copying remain a concern for me at least. In the present case this keris form is very rare I think and it was the image posted that was the direct cause of it being copied. Perhaps the differences between the old and the new are sufficiently great to distinguish between the two but that might only be due to the new keris makers inability to reproduce the original well. Anyway thats my personal view. I dont mean to cause offence or insult.