Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th March 2023, 01:34 AM   #1
JeffS
Member
 
JeffS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 340
Default Tool marks

Any thoughts on what would create these marks? I would normally suspect a power tool, but these appear to be old and limited in area impacted. This is a Kachin style dha marked with the "running tiger" stamp that has been attributed to HuSa on this forum. Where human-powered sharpening wheels in use in early 20th C in this region?
Attached Images
 
JeffS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 03:05 AM   #2
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Smile

I would think so Jeff. The foot powered grindstone has been in use for centuries and I cannot think of any tool other than a grindstone that would leave such evenly spaced marks on the steel.
Rick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 07:33 AM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,219
Default

I'm with Rick. I've had to polish marks like these out of blades before. They are usually grind marks and are harder to get out. They aggravate the snot out of me.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 12:04 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Yes, I agree with Rick and Jose, power tool marks.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 12:04 PM   #5
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 207
Default

Probably grinstone yes, it could also be angle grinder, but generally, it is less spaced for angle grinder
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 01:34 PM   #6
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Hi Jeff,

I also think some form of power tool, using either human power or other means. These are typical "chatter" marks from a coarse grinder.

In my experience with HuSa dha these grinding marks are common, although not usually as deep as your examples..

Last edited by Ian; 12th March 2023 at 01:50 PM.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 06:27 PM   #7
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 493
Default

Could you post a picture of the entire sword for context (and because swords are fun to look at)?
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2023, 07:33 PM   #8
Edster
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 408
Default

I'm not convinced that the marks are the results of a powered grinding wheel. The marks are too patterned (narrow & broad marks) to have been ground. The pattern changes slightly along the blade as if they follow the contour of the blade and the edge taper. The edge looks rough ground due to the randomness of the marks and back & forth as one would use a grinder.

Are the marks on both sides of the blade? Are the marks along the full length of the blade? Would appreciate a pic of the entire blade. Also, can you get a micro shot of a mark pair?

What would be the purpose of modifying the blade so as to produce the marks?

I can't yet offer an alternative tool source of the marks; just that it's not from a wheeled grinder.
Edster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2023, 01:18 AM   #9
JeffS
Member
 
JeffS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 340
Default

Additional pictures as requested.
1.& 2. For context and fun
3. Full extent of marks being discussed
4. Close-up of marks
5. Other side, can see course edge marks but no "run away" chaater on this side.
Attached Images
     
JeffS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2023, 02:19 AM   #10
Edster
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 408
Default

JeffS

Thanks for the informative pics. Just a guess, but it looks like the blade may have been struck by a rotating machine with spaced hardened blades not unlike a simple cotton gin. Either on purpose to remove stuck something in the machine or by accident. Not the best illustration of a cotton gin attached, but you get the idea. I can see no reason for marking the blade of such a beautiful sword as part of its fabrication.


http://jimsfortheloveofhistory.blogs...-whitneys.html

Best,
Ed
Edster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2023, 07:28 AM   #11
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the new pictures. They seem to solve the riddle. If you look at the picture with the "running tiger" mark in the top left corner, you can see the same intermittent marks on the actual blade edge. It appears the offending tool was used to sharpen the edge. Perhaps a hand held tool against a fixed blade, or perhaps running the edge along a fixed tool.

At some point the blade and tool became misaligned. and the grinding tool departed from the edge and rode up the blade, creating a sweeping series of marks along the blade, initially deeper near the edge and getting less so along the way as the blade was removed from contact. The same problem looks as though it occurred several times, although less seriously.

I doubt this happened with the original manufacture of the blade. Probably some time later, by someone who did not know what they were doing. The sharpening tool might have been quite small, maybe something like a Dremel wheel. I've seen attempts to "decorate" Filipino blades using a Dremel wheel and it looks somewhat similar to your marks.

Incidentally, in the "running tiger" picture, you have a good example of the usual faint grinding marks running obliquely across the blade. Those look like a "fine grind" finish. The next stage would be polishing, but the HuSa blades don't often get polished smooth in my experience.

Last edited by Ian; 13th March 2023 at 09:20 AM.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2023, 01:12 PM   #12
JeffS
Member
 
JeffS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 340
Default

Guess there is nothing to do but polish it out. That is going to take some elbow grease. Upside is it may have a fine hairpin pattern.
JeffS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2023, 05:33 PM   #13
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

Here you can see how I did it.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=grinding
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2023, 10:01 PM   #14
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,079
Default Grindstone

Old painting of sharpening.
Attached Images
 
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.