Is this an authentic Formosan Paiwan sword?

apolaki · 11th July 2012, 03:54 AM

I got this while on my trip in Taiwan. Do you think its authentic or a tourist piece? Does anyone know if it is legal to ship swords from Taiwan to US or take on a plane in checked-in luggage? =) Thanks!!

VANDOO · 11th July 2012, 06:13 PM

I AM NO EXPERT ON THESE BUT BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS AND ON THIS FORUM. IT IS NOT TYPICAL OF THE TOURIST ITEMS AND CLOSER TO THOSE ACTUALLY USED BY THE NATIVE PEOPLE. DO A FORUM SEARCH FOR THESE AND SEND A MESSAGE TO ONE OF THE EXPERTS AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO TELL YOU MUCH MORE.

KuKulzA28 · 11th July 2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

I got this while on my trip in Taiwan. Do you think its authentic or a tourist piece? Does anyone know if it is legal to ship swords from Taiwan to US or take on a plane in checked-in luggage? =) Thanks!!

Hi, seems like you made it to Taiwan safe and sound.

It looks like it definitely could be Paiwan. If it is Paiwanese, their blades are called "takit"... pronounced like "tjakit"... the tj sound I think is like the tj in Atjeh, otherwise spelled Aceh.

As for whether it's tourist or not, hard to say. It doesn't look quite like the tourist examples I've seen / owned, if that helps you at all.

You can have it in luggage but not your carry-ons.

Shipping is possible, but be careful and willing to risk loss... while Taiwanese postal service is usually very efficient - they are paranoid of sending blades in the mail. You are technically not allowed to. Easiest way it to put it in your luggage, check it in, and then pick up your luggage (and the blade) where-ever your final destination (home) is.

apolaki · 12th July 2012, 03:17 PM

Greetings,

Have you shipped a sword from Taiwan to another country before either by mail or in checked in luggage?

Sajen · 12th July 2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Greetings,

Have you shipped a sword from Taiwan to another country before either by mail or in checked in luggage?

I have had many times blades in my checked in luggage from Indonesia to Germany, never have had big problems, only one time I have to open it because the Indonesian customs thought that I have a mandau inside.
Don't think that you will have problems by this in Taiwan, maybe ask before.

Regards,

Detlef

kai · 13th July 2012, 07:26 AM

Hello Detlef,

Why would a mandau have been special?

---

Regarding checked-in luggage, the airlines are only concerned with stuff that could be dangerous during the flight, e.g. explosives, poison, etc. You can check the international list of banned substances online and will have seen those posters at airports already. If not banned, you can check it in; actually this is the only economical way to ship long spears that are a pain with regular postal services.

The country of origin may have restrictions on what is allowed to take out of the country. Many countries don't allow export of antiques (sometimes only from their own cultures) but even if so, you can usually apply for exemptions if your piece is not a unique cultural icon (most run-of-the-mill antiques are often easy - just make sure to apply in advance with the respective authorities (if needed) before you go to the airport. In your case, the sword may not be antique?

Of course, you should know which restrictions may apply to the country of destination. Other than that, just make sure you pay any import taxes/fees upon arrival (report to the customs if unsure) and you're fine. (Since there are usually allowances, this is still cheaper than receiving a piece by mail.)

Regards,
Kai

apolaki · 13th July 2012, 01:58 PM

Greetings,

I am flying Eva Air from Tapei to LAX (Los Angeles) and then American Airlines..

From Eva Air website it says:

"There are items that cannot be transported onboard the aircraft in either your carry-on or checked baggage:

Dangerous goods that endanger the aircraft, persons or property onboard the aircraft:

9. Other dangerous articles such as magnetized material, offensive or irritating materials (such as knives, swords,offensive sticks,clubs,arrows,tear-gas,stun-gun etc.)"

=/

Is there another alternative, like Fed Ex?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Why would a mandau have been special?

---

Regarding checked-in luggage, the airlines are only concerned with stuff that could be dangerous during the flight, e.g. explosives, poison, etc. You can check the international list of banned substances online and will have seen those posters at airports already. If not banned, you can check it in; actually this is the only economical way to ship long spears that are a pain with regular postal services.

The country of origin may have restrictions on what is allowed to take out of the country. Many countries don't allow export of antiques (sometimes only from their own cultures) but even if so, you can usually apply for exemptions if your piece is not a unique cultural icon (most run-of-the-mill antiques are often easy - just make sure to apply in advance with the respective authorities (if needed) before you go to the airport. In your case, the sword may not be antique?

Of course, you should know which restrictions may apply to the country of destination. Other than that, just make sure you pay any import taxes/fees upon arrival (report to the customs if unsure) and you're fine. (Since there are usually allowances, this is still cheaper than receiving a piece by mail.)

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 13th July 2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Why would a mandau have been special?

Hello Kai,

in Indonesia there are retrictions as well to take out antiques which are older as 50 or 70 years, I don't remember exactly but isn't realised stricly. I have taken out antiques every time I have been to Indonesia and it was the first time that they have controlled my blades visual and told me they thought I have mandaus in my luggage. I think it become harder by some things like mandaus or keris.

Regards,

Detlef

KuKulzA28 · 14th July 2012, 04:57 PM

apolaki, FYI, I had two blades I bought in Taiwan, in my luggage, and I brought it safely from Taiwan, to San Fran, and then changed flights to Boston... no problems.

Sajen · 14th July 2012, 08:38 PM

I think as well that there will be any problem by the airline but it will be one phone to know if it's allowed or not!

apolaki · 15th July 2012, 01:58 AM

wow really? did you fly Eva Air to the United States and then American Airlines to Boston?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

apolaki, FYI, I had two blades I bought in Taiwan, in my luggage, and I brought it safely from Taiwan, to San Fran, and then changed flights to Boston... no problems.

yuanzhumin · 22nd July 2012, 06:31 AM

Hello Apolaki,

Sorry to deceive you: your sword is a nice souvenir but it is not the authentic piece. It is a little better than the ones made in the fifties to sell to the American soldiers stationed on the island, and that we commonly see appearing on Ebay.

Yours could have been made a little later, may be sixties or seventies. But it remains a piece made for outsiders, a folklore piece. If it was sold to you as an authentic one, the seller lied and this is a fake.

You can see it by yourself: the carving has been done awkwardly and the quality is not there; the more recent copper string used on the open side of the scabbard; the black/brownish slip added on the wood to make it appear like it is old and patinated; the poor quality of the wood used that already has split on the handle; the really bad quality of the blade; the use of shells (absolutely not traditional for Paiwan)...

By the way, your sword is in the Paiwanese style.

I advise you to read with attention the previous posts on this forum about authentic Taiwanese swords, check the pictures or look in specialized books to compare by yourself. I can give you some good book references if you need. But I think you will find them already mentioned on this forum if you search correctly.

If you are interested in an authentic sword, you still may find one on sale on the net or in Taiwan antique shops, but prices are high : you have to count from 800 USD to 7000 USD depending on the ethnic group (Paiwan, Atayal, Amis, Puyuma...), the quality or if it's rare or not.

Concerning the shipping, you'd better check with the airlines. Personally, I would never try in a luggage if it's something precious. Usual well known private shipping services could do perfectly as they have done well in the past for me with my Taiwanese knives, but I have to say frankly that i'm getting more and more problems with the customs.

Concerning the exportation of antiques, IN TAIWAN, there is no laws limiting it.

Best regards,

Yuanzhumin

apolaki · 9th August 2012, 06:53 PM

Is this a more authentic piece, do you have an idea of which tribe made this?

Thanks

varta · 16th August 2012, 04:59 PM

another item for tourists ...

KuKulzA28 · 18th August 2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

wow really? did you fly Eva Air to the United States and then American Airlines to Boston?

I think it was EVA air and then United to Boston, but no hassle whatsoever

milandro · 8th February 2023, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Is this a more authentic piece, do you have an idea of which tribe made this?

Thanks

I have got in a deal one straight Tjakit which has been certainly made by the same maker , the hilt is exactly the same and on the ( straight) sheath ( not open) there are the same " tribal" signs.

Though no doubt this is (like mine) a modern blade, the blade itself seems to have been made well and mine is very sharp indeed

milandro · 12th February 2023, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I have got in a deal one straight Tjakit which has been certainly made by the same maker , the hilt is exactly the same and on the ( straight) sheath ( not open) there are the same " tribal" signs.

Though no doubt this is (like mine) a modern blade, the blade itself seems to have been made well and mine is very sharp indeed

Mine, currently for sale in the NL, so I won't show it here as long as the sale is up on a local classified ads page, looks very similar to this one found on David Atkinson's great source site . I am pretty confident that they come from the same maker

I am very curious of the process function of that small cylindrical piece of wood, which I think, is to secure the sheath to a belt but I am curios to HOW this precisely happens.

Mine has the same cylinder

The blade is really VERY sharp and although mine and these example shown here may be a modern production the quality far exceeds anything I have seen simply made to cater for the occasional tourist on a street market. The sword could be used in combat and as a utilitarian tool. It may not be hundreds of years old but it is a very good weapon nonetheless.

kronckew · 12th February 2023, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Mine, currently for sale in the NL, so I won't show it here as long as the sale is up on a local classified ads page, looks very similar to this one found on David Atkinson's great source site . I am pretty confident that they come from the same maker

I am very curious of the process function of that small cylindrical piece of wood, which I think, is to secure the sheath to a belt but I am curios to HOW this precisely happens.

Mine has the same cylinder

The blade is really VERY sharp and although mine and these example shown here may be a modern production the quality far exceeds anything I have seen simply made to cater for the occasional tourist on a street market. The sword could be used in combat and as a utilitarian tool. It may not be hundreds of years old but it is a very good weapon nonetheless.

The cylindrical piece of wood with the holes for the cord is a type of toggle button, you can use it to attach to a belt, or a baldric.

I have a straight (and a curved) one myself, also well-made, chisel edged, sharp as heck, I read here in the past that the hill tribe smiths died off, and their children went to work in more lucrative positions in the city. At the time he posted here he said there was only on old man left making these for use by the tribes, and also for any tourists that came across him.

milandro · 12th February 2023, 03:13 PM

Thanks Kronckew, indeed this is very similar to mine and the one above.

I am rather positive they may be from the same hand. Many are dismissive of such pieces ad being for the tourists while, I believe, they are simply contemporarily made but that doesn't take anything away from they intrinsic qualities as a weapon or tool. They are well made and sharp and perfectly functional.

I am still not clear auto how this is attached to a belt though if , as you say, this is a toggle button, the entire weight of the sword (granted not much) would be supported by the rather flimsy piece of string (double though it is in my sword) and I can imagine that that would be a lot of stress for the string)

I decided that I can remove the ad and show the piece

kronckew · 12th February 2023, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Thanks Kronckew, indeed this is very similar to mine and the one above.

I am rather positive they may be from the same hand. Many are dismissive of such pieces ad being for the tourists while, I believe, they are simply contemporarily made but that doesn't take anything away from they intrinsic qualities as a weapon or tool. They are well made and sharp and perfectly functional.

I am still not clear auto how this is attached to a belt though.

I'm adding my curved lalaw style one below. It just has a loop you can put a belt thru that I added. The only pics I can find seem to imply the straight ones just had a loop that you could slip a belt thru, or a cord/strap thru the holes with 2 'tails' that could be tied as a belt. Some, like the lalaw, had a baldric, I'd make a baldric, one end with a loop for the toggle to be 'buttoned thru, the other decoratively wrapped around the scabbard below it. Or dispense with the toggle and just use a loop for the belt.

milandro · 13th February 2023, 01:13 PM

cheers! Thanks for the pictures. I found another two of the curved variety for sale in the NL (and one side open with metal clamps), most people, including myself, first think of these as African rather then Taiwanese.

Sajen · 13th February 2023, 01:26 PM

Please keep in mind that all shown here examples are made for those who travel!

milandro · 13th February 2023, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Please keep in mind that all here shown examples are made for those who travel!

true, nevertheless, in my experience the blade quality of tourist implements is normally not as good as this.

This blades are made of good steel, they are hardened , have a half diamond chisel grind, profile

Dave Atkinson finds them worthy of being in his collection and so do, apparently, SOME others.

, if tit is good for him, it is good for me too

http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../paiwan-sword/

this is a YouTube video (there is no way for me to load this video on the forum, I think)

It shows how they make these " tourist" blades. I don't see what's wrong with them. This is a curved Atayal, the Tjakit would also be equally made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQnLfPJ1h4g

Sajen · 13th February 2023, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Dave Atkinson finds them worthy of being in his collection and so do, apparently, SOME others.

, if tit is good for him, it is good for me too

To each his own!

I have owned some real antique ones and handled a few tourist ones, a great difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

this is a YouTube video (there is no way for me to load this video on the forum, I think)

It shows how they make these " tourist" blades. I don't see what's wrong with them. This is a curved Atayal, the Tjakit would also be equally made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQnLfPJ1h4g

I doubt that the blades in this video are for the tourist swords, sorry.

milandro · 13th February 2023, 04:05 PM

the final result looks very similar to the examples above.

milandro · 13th February 2023, 04:14 PM

there is another video of another blade smith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVTbM0WwL7A

and another one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADYBl0nZzxw

Bob A · 13th February 2023, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

To each his own!

I have owned some real antique ones and handled a few tourist ones, a great difference.

For many collectors, Mojo makes the difference.

It's a tenet of sympathetic magic: things once in contact remain in contact, in an ineffable way. (Quantum mechanics has something to say about that as well).

If "magic" doesn't provide sufficient impetus to push a price point, there's always "provenance".

(I don't mean to dispute the realities of actual construction, BTW).

Sajen · 13th February 2023, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

For many collectors, Mojo makes the difference.

It's a tenet of sympathetic magic: things once in contact remain in contact, in an ineffable way. (Quantum mechanics has something to say about that as well).

If "magic" doesn't provide sufficient impetus to push a price point, there's always "provenance".

(I don't mean to dispute the realities of actual construction, BTW).

I've meant the quality, compare with the authentic ones.

Ian · 14th February 2023, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

... I believe, they are simply contemporarily made but that doesn't take anything away from they intrinsic qualities as a weapon or tool. They are well made and sharp and perfectly functional. ...

milandro, I think you have raised a good point about functionality. My experience with most of these contemporary Taiwanese pieces is that the blades are very poor and unsharpened. They probably would not retain an edge if they were sharpened. Such poorly made items are delegated appropriately, I think, as souvenirs for tourists. The (very) few that were of similar style and had decent blades with hardened edges may well be contemporary functioning pieces. What we see on eBay and other online sites are almost always of poor quality in my experience. I bought several when they first showed up online maybe 20+ years ago, just to see what they were like, and they all had junk blades that appeared to have been made by stock reduction rather than forged.

milandro · 14th February 2023, 09:32 AM

cheers, as shown above in my and other cases ( at the very least for the 3 tjakit ^ ) I can witness the blade is of a very good forged quality. I will take it with me when tomorrow I will go to see a master blade smith local to me, I am going there to ask for advise on another matter but I will also ask what he thinks of the blade of my Tjakit.

11th July 2012, 03:54 AM	#1
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	Is this an authentic Formosan Paiwan sword? I got this while on my trip in Taiwan. Do you think its authentic or a tourist piece? Does anyone know if it is legal to ship swords from Taiwan to US or take on a plane in checked-in luggage? =) Thanks!! Attached Images

9th August 2012, 06:53 PM	#13
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	What do you think of this Taiwan Aboriginal sword? Is this a more authentic piece, do you have an idea of which tribe made this? Thanks Attached Images

16th August 2012, 04:59 PM	#14
varta Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Berlin-Paris Posts: 37	not any better another item for tourists ...

12th February 2023, 03:13 PM	#19
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	Thanks Kronckew, indeed this is very similar to mine and the one above. I am rather positive they may be from the same hand. Many are dismissive of such pieces ad being for the tourists while, I believe, they are simply contemporarily made but that doesn't take anything away from they intrinsic qualities as a weapon or tool. They are well made and sharp and perfectly functional. I am still not clear auto how this is attached to a belt though if , as you say, this is a toggle button, the entire weight of the sword (granted not much) would be supported by the rather flimsy piece of string (double though it is in my sword) and I can imagine that that would be a lot of stress for the string) I decided that I can remove the ad and show the piece Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 12th February 2023 at 03:36 PM.

13th February 2023, 04:05 PM	#25
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	the final result looks very similar to the examples above. Attached Images

11th July 2012, 06:13 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NO EXPERT ON THESE BUT BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS AND ON THIS FORUM. IT IS NOT TYPICAL OF THE TOURIST ITEMS AND CLOSER TO THOSE ACTUALLY USED BY THE NATIVE PEOPLE. DO A FORUM SEARCH FOR THESE AND SEND A MESSAGE TO ONE OF THE EXPERTS AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO TELL YOU MUCH MORE.

12th July 2012, 03:17 PM	#4
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	Greetings, Have you shipped a sword from Taiwan to another country before either by mail or in checked in luggage?

13th July 2012, 07:26 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, Why would a mandau have been special? --- Regarding checked-in luggage, the airlines are only concerned with stuff that could be dangerous during the flight, e.g. explosives, poison, etc. You can check the international list of banned substances online and will have seen those posters at airports already. If not banned, you can check it in; actually this is the only economical way to ship long spears that are a pain with regular postal services. The country of origin may have restrictions on what is allowed to take out of the country. Many countries don't allow export of antiques (sometimes only from their own cultures) but even if so, you can usually apply for exemptions if your piece is not a unique cultural icon (most run-of-the-mill antiques are often easy - just make sure to apply in advance with the respective authorities (if needed) before you go to the airport. In your case, the sword may not be antique? Of course, you should know which restrictions may apply to the country of destination. Other than that, just make sure you pay any import taxes/fees upon arrival (report to the customs if unsure) and you're fine. (Since there are usually allowances, this is still cheaper than receiving a piece by mail.) Regards, Kai

14th July 2012, 04:57 PM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	apolaki, FYI, I had two blades I bought in Taiwan, in my luggage, and I brought it safely from Taiwan, to San Fran, and then changed flights to Boston... no problems.

14th July 2012, 08:38 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	I think as well that there will be any problem by the airline but it will be one phone to know if it's allowed or not!

22nd July 2012, 06:31 AM	#12
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hello Apolaki, Sorry to deceive you: your sword is a nice souvenir but it is not the authentic piece. It is a little better than the ones made in the fifties to sell to the American soldiers stationed on the island, and that we commonly see appearing on Ebay. Yours could have been made a little later, may be sixties or seventies. But it remains a piece made for outsiders, a folklore piece. If it was sold to you as an authentic one, the seller lied and this is a fake. You can see it by yourself: the carving has been done awkwardly and the quality is not there; the more recent copper string used on the open side of the scabbard; the black/brownish slip added on the wood to make it appear like it is old and patinated; the poor quality of the wood used that already has split on the handle; the really bad quality of the blade; the use of shells (absolutely not traditional for Paiwan)... By the way, your sword is in the Paiwanese style. I advise you to read with attention the previous posts on this forum about authentic Taiwanese swords, check the pictures or look in specialized books to compare by yourself. I can give you some good book references if you need. But I think you will find them already mentioned on this forum if you search correctly. If you are interested in an authentic sword, you still may find one on sale on the net or in Taiwan antique shops, but prices are high : you have to count from 800 USD to 7000 USD depending on the ethnic group (Paiwan, Atayal, Amis, Puyuma...), the quality or if it's rare or not. Concerning the shipping, you'd better check with the airlines. Personally, I would never try in a luggage if it's something precious. Usual well known private shipping services could do perfectly as they have done well in the past for me with my Taiwanese knives, but I have to say frankly that i'm getting more and more problems with the customs. Concerning the exportation of antiques, IN TAIWAN, there is no laws limiting it. Best regards, Yuanzhumin

13th February 2023, 01:13 PM	#21
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	cheers! Thanks for the pictures. I found another two of the curved variety for sale in the NL (and one side open with metal clamps), most people, including myself, first think of these as African rather then Taiwanese.

13th February 2023, 01:26 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Please keep in mind that all shown here examples are made for those who travel!

13th February 2023, 04:14 PM	#26
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	there is another video of another blade smith https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVTbM0WwL7A and another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADYBl0nZzxw Last edited by milandro; 13th February 2023 at 04:36 PM.

14th February 2023, 09:32 AM	#30
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 474	cheers, as shown above in my and other cases ( at the very least for the 3 tjakit ^ ) I can witness the blade is of a very good forged quality. I will take it with me when tomorrow I will go to see a master blade smith local to me, I am going there to ask for advise on another matter but I will also ask what he thinks of the blade of my Tjakit.