21st January 2023, 05:00 AM | #1 |
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Sumatran keris
Do you think this is a Javanese keris bilah, despite being in a Sumatran keris dress.
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21st January 2023, 09:32 AM | #2 |
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Despite the Lampung (or perhaps Palembang but I believe is the first) hilt and selut , this is a think, a Javanese or perhaps even more likely Maduran blade.
I have had a couple of similar blades in the past but I din't keep pictures Last edited by milandro; 21st January 2023 at 11:40 AM. Reason: wrote sumatran but meant Javanese |
21st January 2023, 10:25 AM | #3 |
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I'll offer an opinion, with a disclaimer that you probably shouldn't put much stock into it because I'm hoping to use it an opportunity to test myself and see what more experienced members have to say to compare.
I say Javanese based on: - the long-ish gonjo with the tungkakan and spur ricikan (is this ari pandan). I don't know these to be Sumatran features. - the boto rubuh blumbangan, which might lend evidence to more specific Javanese classifications like West Jawa/Sunda, except I think maybe the gonjo does not support a West Jawa claim. |
21st January 2023, 11:37 AM | #4 |
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In my opinion this type of blade style spreads throughout West Java up to Palembang in Sumatera. There is very little reliable guide can be used to differentiate accurately the origin of the blade. It could well be a Sumatran piece as well as West Java piece. Style indicators can be mixed with pieces from this area.
In my opinion, what is important is that this blade has good quality and the overall blade style and dress matches the possible geographical origin of the keris. No point arguing on the origin of the blade. |
21st January 2023, 03:00 PM | #5 |
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That’s a lot to determine from a single over all photo viewed on the internet. Also, I am currently looking at this on my phone, so I don’t have the best view. We all know that certain in areas of Sumatra such as Palembang keris were greatly influenced by Jawa.
I might change my mind later when I can see this photo more closely, but this could very well be a Sumatran blade. |
21st January 2023, 06:22 PM | #6 |
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I will also say that if we are to look at a photo and try to assess a keris that the best orientation to do that is with the keris pointing upwards.
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21st January 2023, 06:32 PM | #7 |
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I can address this one concern and say definitively that this spur feature on the gonjo (and i am not sure is this specific feature, when a stand alone in this position on the gonjo, is called ri pandan or not) can indeed be found on Sumatran keris.
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21st January 2023, 07:07 PM | #8 |
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Anthony, has the gonjo been made as a separate forging, and is that forging a complex pamor miring?
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21st January 2023, 09:16 PM | #9 |
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Good questions Alan, and i would suggest that Anthony upload some higher quality close up images. I think it is difficult to be too sure about anything from this one photo.
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21st January 2023, 09:21 PM | #10 |
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David, this could be a Keris from one of Alan's previous catalogues. The Gonjo seems to be separately forged from a twisted bar.
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21st January 2023, 09:25 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
I'm sure Alan will be able to tell us if this was a keris he had sold, especially once Anthony replies and possibly adds more detailed images. |
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21st January 2023, 09:36 PM | #12 |
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Well, let's formulate that in a different way - the Gonjo is made from a twisted bar and separately forged.
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21st January 2023, 10:16 PM | #13 |
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Here's my take. The tunggakan can be found on Palembang keris too. The twisted gonjo can be from anywhere. East coast Malaysia Bugis keris also tend to have a twisted bar gonjo even if the blade is mlumah. The blumbangan looks square - Mataram influenced. The front of gandik is curved - West Java, but many later keris use this feature as well.
So this keris overall style is a Mataram style with West Java influence. The thing about West Java keris is that they usually have a forging flaw somewhere on the blade. But I can't say this for all keris, obviously. Some West Javan keris are very nice kerises. This one appears to have good quality forging. So, I have to vote, I'll lean against Sumatra on this one. Usually the provenance of the keris will be used to determine the final verdict. Below is a photo of the greneng of my Palembang keris. The keris has a square blumbangan, and the greneng is Surakarta. The blumbangan is cut in the style of this keris uploaded by Anthony. |
21st January 2023, 10:23 PM | #14 |
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I agree with Rasdan on matter of separately forged Gonjo with complex Pamor found on Peninsula (and Sumatra).
Blumbangan here more likely is Mboto Rubuh. |
21st January 2023, 11:09 PM | #15 |
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It seems that I might be a little less perceptive than some other people.
To me, the gonjo appears to be manipulated into a pamor miring pattern, but from the photos, and most especially, with only photos to help me, I cannot be any more certain than that the gonjo appears to be manipulated, and might be separately forged. Something else that I feel I might be seeing is a keris with a collection of characteristics that are normally associated with a variety of keris from a variety of different locations and different time periods. Based upon what I believe I can see in the photos I do not have sufficient information to form any supportable opinion. Currently, I'm looking at a puzzle. |
21st January 2023, 11:31 PM | #16 | |
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G'day Alan,
This keris was in cat #79; your description back then: Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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21st January 2023, 11:59 PM | #17 |
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Does the close-up help?
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22nd January 2023, 12:07 AM | #18 |
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22nd January 2023, 12:09 AM | #19 |
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22nd January 2023, 12:17 AM | #20 |
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Thank you Kai, I thought it looked familiar, and if that was my description when I listed it, it is still my description now.
I cannot remember everything, and once a keris leaves my hands the info I have on it gets put away. EDIT I've been reflecting on this keris, and I think it provides a very valuable lesson for all of us. We all understand that it is often difficult to appraise a keris from a (usually) poor image on a screen. OK, that's a given. But here we have a keris that I had for many years, that I sold several years ago, and that when I saw it on the screen, it confused me, I had forgotten it & did not recognise it as one I had once had in my possession. To a degree this reflects my aging memory, but I think that just as much, it reflects how difficult it can be to appraise a keris from a photograph. We all need to remember that a photo is only a very small part of the story, we should never be too certain about anything when the only information available is an image, especially when that image is on a screen. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 22nd January 2023 at 08:58 PM. Reason: further comment |
22nd January 2023, 12:31 AM | #21 |
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22nd January 2023, 02:39 AM | #22 |
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22nd January 2023, 03:12 AM | #23 |
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22nd January 2023, 03:22 AM | #24 |
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22nd January 2023, 09:03 PM | #25 |
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This is what this keris looked like when I had it.
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23rd January 2023, 02:23 AM | #26 |
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