Middle Sepik dagger. - Page 3

Robert · 24th October 2013, 09:16 PM

Well, here is what looks like a small crocodile jaw bone dagger. It is approximately 10 inches in length. The photos make it looks extremely bleached out but I think that it is most likely because of the flash. What do the experts think, is this croc or not?

Robert

VANDOO · 24th October 2013, 10:29 PM

I HAVE SEEN SOME THAT LOOK LIKE THIS MADE RECENTLY IN THE USA FROM ALIGATOR JAWS. USUALLY YOU CAN SEE WHERE POWER TOOLS, SAWS AND GRINDERS HAVE BEEN USED ON THESE. I DON'T THINK IT WAS MADE IN NEW GUINEA OR FROM CROC JAW BUT COULD BE WRONG. I DON'T KNOW IF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES MADE SUCH DAGGERS IN THE OLD DAYS BUT THE GATORS WERE VERY NUMEROUS THEN SO IT IS POSSIBLE.
THE GATOR JAWS AND SKULLS ARE USUALLY CLEANED WITH STRONG BLEACH SO IF IT LOOKS BLEACHED WHITE ( AS IT APEARS IN THE PICTURES) THAT IS ANOTHER THING TO LOOK FOR. THE NEW GATOR JAW KNIVES ARE NEAT BUT NOT REALLY ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT IT IS GOOD TO SEE ONE IN THIS POST FOR COMPARASON.

Robert · 24th October 2013, 11:09 PM

Thank you very much for your opinion and information. I will look for the telltale marks left by power tools when it arrives. If it does not show any of these signs if you would like I could send it to you for a first hand look at it and final evaluation. Thanks again.

Robert

VANDOO · 7th December 2013, 06:47 AM

PICTURES
#1,#2 & #3. BONE DAGGER WITH ARM BAND KWOMA TRIBE, SEPIK PAPUA NEW GUINEA. 21 CM. LONG DAGGER
#4. AZMAT BARBED DAGGER 12 INCHES LONG

VANDOO · 24th March 2014, 09:05 PM

#1. #2, #3. ABELAM DAGGERS
#4. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH CASSOWARY HEAD POMMEL.
#5, #6. #7. BONE DAGGER, 13.5 IN.L.
#8. BONE DAGGER

Sajen · 30th March 2014, 01:48 PM

An Asmat dagger from human bone!

VANDOO · 17th November 2014, 06:21 PM

HERE ARE A FEW MORE EXAMPLES TO ADD TO THE REFERENCE.

#1. THRU #5, 16.75 IN., ABELAM TRIBE,WORSA REGION, CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER,CARVED BIRD POMMEL
#6. 6 ABELAM DAGGER FROM BOOK
#7. THRU # 10, 38 CM. ABELAM DAGGER CARVED BIRD POMMEL
#11. SENTANAI, BONE DAGGER
#. 12 PICTURE OF TWO DAGGERS IN THE MUSEUM IN BUDAPEST.

VANDOO · 18th November 2014, 06:17 AM

TWO MORE PICTURES OF #11 SENTANAI DAGGER IN ABOVE POST.

VANDOO · 16th January 2015, 05:37 AM

HERE IS SOMETHING THAT SOLD RECENTLY ON EBAY. IT HAS A WOOD BLADE AND A VERTEBRAE OF SOME SORT ATTACHED TO THE TOP WITH FIBER. I SUSPECT IT IS RECENT MADE AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE A TRUE ETHNOGRAPHIC DAGGER. IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T QUALIFY AS A BONE DAGGER IN MY BOOK BUT GOOD FOR REFRENCE.
13.5 INCH LONG WOOD BLADE BONE VERTEBRAE POMMEL. SAID TO BE FROM THE CASSOWARY BUT WHO KNOWS?

VANDOO · 24th January 2015, 03:04 AM

A FEW MORE NEW GUINEA BONE ITEMS.
#1. & #2. EAST SEPIK, ARAPESH AREA TOOL USED AT YAM FEASTS, 8 IN. LONG
. #3. & #4. ASMAT BEFORE 1950, 14.5 IN. LONG
#5 THRU #7 ABELAM, PNG BEFORE 1950, 10.5 IN. LONG

VANDOO · 11th March 2015, 05:38 AM

A FEW MORE EXAMPLES
#1. & #2. SHORT DAGGER 17 CM. LONG, KUBALIA AREA NEW GUINEA
#3. #4, & #5. WESTERN SEPIK, PRE-CONTACT 28 CM. LONG. POSSIBLY MADE FROM HUMAN BONE I WOULD GUESS UPPER ARM BONE (HUMERUS)
#6. TWO EXAMPLES FROM THE BUDAPEST MUSEUM CATALOG.

VANDOO · 18th April 2015, 04:44 AM

#1. & #2. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 18.5 INCHES LONG
#3. ABELAM, 32.5 CM. LONG
#4, #5, & #6. ABELAM 39 CM. LONG
#7. 40 CM. LONG BOKIN BONE DAGGER

VANDOO · 12th May 2015, 09:18 PM

#1. 19 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER
#2. 25 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER
#3. 11 IN., 28CM. l. AZMAT BONE DAGGER
#4. 47 CM./ 18.5 INCHES AZMAT CROCODILE JAW DAGGER
#5. 38 CM. AZMAT DAGGER
#6. 40 CM. AZMAT DAGGER
#7. WOSERA BONE DAGGER, 30 CM.
#8 & #9. AITAPE BONE DAGGER, 31 CM.
#10, #11, & #12. 35 CM. BONE DAGGER MIDDLE SEPIK.

VANDOO · 23rd July 2015, 05:02 AM

A FEW MORE EXAMPLES RECENT AND VINTAGE.
#1. AZMAT 12.5 INCHES LONG TRADITIONAL GRIP
#2., #3 & #4. RECENT ITEM WITH CASSOWARY BONE, CLAWS AND FEATHERS.
#5 & #6. RECENT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH SHEITH.
#7. THREE IATMUAL PAY BACK DAGGERS.
#8. 36 CM. LONG PNG
#9, #10 & #11. 44CM. OR 17.5 INCH CROCODILE DAGGER AZMAT PAPUA APPEARS TO BE MORE RECENT THAN SOME.

VANDOO · 22nd January 2016, 10:00 PM

TWO MORE VARIATIONS OF NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS ONE 15.5 IN AND ONE 8 INCHES LONG. THE LONGER ONE COULD BE A LIME STICK.

VANDOO · 8th March 2016, 07:14 PM

#1. AZMAT, NORTH WEST COAST NEW GUINEA
#2. TWO NICE EXAMPLES OF THE DAGGERS WITH FACES

VANDOO · 9th June 2016, 09:49 PM

#1. ABELAM 7 IN. LONG
#2. ABELAM 7.5 IN. LONG
#3. THRU #6. ABELAM 16 INCHES LONG.
#7 THRU # 9. ABELAM 37 CM. LONG
#10 THRU #12. ITAMUL, 12 INCH, ORCHID FIBER HANDLE AND SHEATH.

VANDOO · 24th August 2016, 09:09 PM

THREE NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS CASSOWARY BONE GOOD AGE AND PATINA
17 CM, 20 CM AND 24 CM.

VANDOO · 22nd October 2016, 02:09 AM

#1. 26 CM. LONG THIN DAGGER OR LIME STICK, SEPIK AREA
#2. & #3. & #4. 32 CM. LONG WOOD SEPIK DAGGER
#5. & #6. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 19 CM. NEW GUINEA

VANDOO · 4th December 2016, 04:08 AM

A FEW MORE EXAMPLES.
#1. & #2. 27 INCH AZMAT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER
#3. & #4. 33 CM. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER

Battara · 4th December 2016, 06:18 PM

I did not realize the full range of artwork on these daggers!

machinist · 4th October 2020, 08:12 PM

I picked up a couple that belong in this thread, One cassowary and one from a person. I know little about these cultures so if anyone has any opinions about the engraving styles and their origin please share. As I understand it human bone daggers were taken from the skeleton of an honored ancestor rather than the victims of cannibalism. Such daggers are quite rare, a survey off American museums found 21 out of 499 daggers to be from human bones. The human one has a deep covering of soot with the orange patina of the bone peeking through. I hope this does not offend anyone, we all draw the line somewhere and we all end up as bones

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2020, 03:57 PM

You got me thinking about my bone dagger, as to whether it is a human femur or not. I found this good anatomy tutorial. If you follow it carefully even though my dagger has been carved there is still enough anatomical detail left to assume it is probably the femur of the right leg. The details are in the distal femur. The medial & lateral condyles, medial adductor tubercle and more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0cOvuhsa8

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2020, 04:02 PM

It fits my leg.

Sajen · 11th October 2020, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machinist

I picked up a couple that belong in this thread, One cassowary and one from a person.

May I ask from where you know that one is from human bone?

Regards,
Detlef

Tim Simmons · 13th October 2020, 11:05 AM

I am only sumising from the online femur anatomy lessons.

T. Koch · 14th October 2020, 01:32 PM

Cool dagger, Tim! I found this article exploring the difference in daggers from human vs. cssowary material: https://www.livescience.com/62399-hu...e-daggers.html

Cheers, Thor

Sajen · 15th October 2020, 08:58 PM

It's not easy to differentiate between cassowary and human bone, one picture in the link Thor posted shows it good.

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2020, 07:21 AM

Assuming that is the be all knowledge of PNG bone daggers, which I very much doubt.

Sajen · 17th October 2020, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Assuming that is the be all knowledge of PNG bone daggers, which I very much doubt.

I am as well Tim, but the top of the bones show clearly the anatomy difference. Another point is that human bones are more straight.
Another point is the feel and colour, like said, it's not easy.

Regards,
Detlef

24th October 2013, 09:16 PM	#61
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Well, here is what looks like a small crocodile jaw bone dagger. It is approximately 10 inches in length. The photos make it looks extremely bleached out but I think that it is most likely because of the flash. What do the experts think, is this croc or not? Robert Attached Images

24th October 2013, 10:29 PM	#62
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN SOME THAT LOOK LIKE THIS MADE RECENTLY IN THE USA FROM ALIGATOR JAWS. USUALLY YOU CAN SEE WHERE POWER TOOLS, SAWS AND GRINDERS HAVE BEEN USED ON THESE. I DON'T THINK IT WAS MADE IN NEW GUINEA OR FROM CROC JAW BUT COULD BE WRONG. I DON'T KNOW IF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES MADE SUCH DAGGERS IN THE OLD DAYS BUT THE GATORS WERE VERY NUMEROUS THEN SO IT IS POSSIBLE. THE GATOR JAWS AND SKULLS ARE USUALLY CLEANED WITH STRONG BLEACH SO IF IT LOOKS BLEACHED WHITE ( AS IT APEARS IN THE PICTURES) THAT IS ANOTHER THING TO LOOK FOR. THE NEW GATOR JAW KNIVES ARE NEAT BUT NOT REALLY ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT IT IS GOOD TO SEE ONE IN THIS POST FOR COMPARASON. Last edited by VANDOO; 25th October 2013 at 01:32 AM.

7th December 2013, 06:47 AM	#64
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PICTURES #1,#2 & #3. BONE DAGGER WITH ARM BAND KWOMA TRIBE, SEPIK PAPUA NEW GUINEA. 21 CM. LONG DAGGER #4. AZMAT BARBED DAGGER 12 INCHES LONG Attached Images

24th March 2014, 09:05 PM	#65
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. #2, #3. ABELAM DAGGERS #4. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH CASSOWARY HEAD POMMEL. #5, #6. #7. BONE DAGGER, 13.5 IN.L. #8. BONE DAGGER Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 24th March 2014 at 09:26 PM.

30th March 2014, 01:48 PM	#66
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,195	An Asmat dagger from human bone! Attached Images

24th October 2013, 11:09 PM	#63
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank you very much for your opinion and information. I will look for the telltale marks left by power tools when it arrives. If it does not show any of these signs if you would like I could send it to you for a first hand look at it and final evaluation. Thanks again. Robert

17th November 2014, 06:21 PM	#67
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE A FEW MORE EXAMPLES TO ADD TO THE REFERENCE. #1. THRU #5, 16.75 IN., ABELAM TRIBE,WORSA REGION, CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER,CARVED BIRD POMMEL #6. 6 ABELAM DAGGER FROM BOOK #7. THRU # 10, 38 CM. ABELAM DAGGER CARVED BIRD POMMEL #11. SENTANAI, BONE DAGGER #. 12 PICTURE OF TWO DAGGERS IN THE MUSEUM IN BUDAPEST. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 17th November 2014 at 06:57 PM.

18th November 2014, 06:17 AM	#68
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TWO MORE PICTURES OF #11 SENTANAI DAGGER IN ABOVE POST. Attached Images

16th January 2015, 05:37 AM	#69
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS SOMETHING THAT SOLD RECENTLY ON EBAY. IT HAS A WOOD BLADE AND A VERTEBRAE OF SOME SORT ATTACHED TO THE TOP WITH FIBER. I SUSPECT IT IS RECENT MADE AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE A TRUE ETHNOGRAPHIC DAGGER. IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T QUALIFY AS A BONE DAGGER IN MY BOOK BUT GOOD FOR REFRENCE. 13.5 INCH LONG WOOD BLADE BONE VERTEBRAE POMMEL. SAID TO BE FROM THE CASSOWARY BUT WHO KNOWS? Attached Images

24th January 2015, 03:04 AM	#70
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE NEW GUINEA BONE ITEMS. #1. & #2. EAST SEPIK, ARAPESH AREA TOOL USED AT YAM FEASTS, 8 IN. LONG . #3. & #4. ASMAT BEFORE 1950, 14.5 IN. LONG #5 THRU #7 ABELAM, PNG BEFORE 1950, 10.5 IN. LONG Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 24th January 2015 at 03:18 AM.

11th March 2015, 05:38 AM	#71
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE EXAMPLES #1. & #2. SHORT DAGGER 17 CM. LONG, KUBALIA AREA NEW GUINEA #3. #4, & #5. WESTERN SEPIK, PRE-CONTACT 28 CM. LONG. POSSIBLY MADE FROM HUMAN BONE I WOULD GUESS UPPER ARM BONE (HUMERUS) #6. TWO EXAMPLES FROM THE BUDAPEST MUSEUM CATALOG. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 11th March 2015 at 06:06 AM.

18th April 2015, 04:44 AM	#72
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. & #2. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 18.5 INCHES LONG #3. ABELAM, 32.5 CM. LONG #4, #5, & #6. ABELAM 39 CM. LONG #7. 40 CM. LONG BOKIN BONE DAGGER Attached Images

12th May 2015, 09:18 PM	#73
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. 19 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER #2. 25 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER #3. 11 IN., 28CM. l. AZMAT BONE DAGGER #4. 47 CM./ 18.5 INCHES AZMAT CROCODILE JAW DAGGER #5. 38 CM. AZMAT DAGGER #6. 40 CM. AZMAT DAGGER #7. WOSERA BONE DAGGER, 30 CM. #8 & #9. AITAPE BONE DAGGER, 31 CM. #10, #11, & #12. 35 CM. BONE DAGGER MIDDLE SEPIK. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 12th May 2015 at 09:47 PM.

23rd July 2015, 05:02 AM	#74
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE EXAMPLES RECENT AND VINTAGE. #1. AZMAT 12.5 INCHES LONG TRADITIONAL GRIP #2., #3 & #4. RECENT ITEM WITH CASSOWARY BONE, CLAWS AND FEATHERS. #5 & #6. RECENT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH SHEITH. #7. THREE IATMUAL PAY BACK DAGGERS. #8. 36 CM. LONG PNG #9, #10 & #11. 44CM. OR 17.5 INCH CROCODILE DAGGER AZMAT PAPUA APPEARS TO BE MORE RECENT THAN SOME. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 23rd July 2015 at 05:31 AM.

22nd January 2016, 10:00 PM	#75
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TWO MORE VARIATIONS OF NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS ONE 15.5 IN AND ONE 8 INCHES LONG. THE LONGER ONE COULD BE A LIME STICK. Attached Images

8th March 2016, 07:14 PM	#76
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. AZMAT, NORTH WEST COAST NEW GUINEA #2. TWO NICE EXAMPLES OF THE DAGGERS WITH FACES Attached Images

9th June 2016, 09:49 PM	#77
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. ABELAM 7 IN. LONG #2. ABELAM 7.5 IN. LONG #3. THRU #6. ABELAM 16 INCHES LONG. #7 THRU # 9. ABELAM 37 CM. LONG #10 THRU #12. ITAMUL, 12 INCH, ORCHID FIBER HANDLE AND SHEATH. Attached Images

24th August 2016, 09:09 PM	#78
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THREE NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS CASSOWARY BONE GOOD AGE AND PATINA 17 CM, 20 CM AND 24 CM. Attached Images

22nd October 2016, 02:09 AM	#79
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	#1. 26 CM. LONG THIN DAGGER OR LIME STICK, SEPIK AREA #2. & #3. & #4. 32 CM. LONG WOOD SEPIK DAGGER #5. & #6. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 19 CM. NEW GUINEA Attached Images

4th December 2016, 04:08 AM	#80
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE EXAMPLES. #1. & #2. 27 INCH AZMAT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER #3. & #4. 33 CM. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER Attached Images

4th December 2016, 06:18 PM	#81
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I did not realize the full range of artwork on these daggers!

4th October 2020, 08:12 PM	#82
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	I picked up a couple that belong in this thread, One cassowary and one from a person. I know little about these cultures so if anyone has any opinions about the engraving styles and their origin please share. As I understand it human bone daggers were taken from the skeleton of an honored ancestor rather than the victims of cannibalism. Such daggers are quite rare, a survey off American museums found 21 out of 499 daggers to be from human bones. The human one has a deep covering of soot with the orange patina of the bone peeking through. I hope this does not offend anyone, we all draw the line somewhere and we all end up as bones Attached Images

6th October 2020, 03:57 PM	#83
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	You got me thinking about my bone dagger, as to whether it is a human femur or not. I found this good anatomy tutorial. If you follow it carefully even though my dagger has been carved there is still enough anatomical detail left to assume it is probably the femur of the right leg. The details are in the distal femur. The medial & lateral condyles, medial adductor tubercle and more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0cOvuhsa8 Attached Images

6th October 2020, 04:02 PM	#84
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	It fits my leg. Attached Images

13th October 2020, 11:05 AM	#86
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I am only sumising from the online femur anatomy lessons.

14th October 2020, 01:32 PM	#87
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Cool dagger, Tim! I found this article exploring the difference in daggers from human vs. cssowary material: https://www.livescience.com/62399-hu...e-daggers.html Cheers, Thor

15th October 2020, 08:58 PM	#88
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,195	It's not easy to differentiate between cassowary and human bone, one picture in the link Thor posted shows it good. Attached Images

16th October 2020, 07:21 AM	#89
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Assuming that is the be all knowledge of PNG bone daggers, which I very much doubt.