Need help with translation of a " blasphemous"(?) inscription

[ariel]

Sold on E-Bay.
This is an Ethiopian sword with straight blade 27 1/4" long, total 32".
Was advertised as Mamluk blade.
I was intrigued by the inscriptions and asked several colleagues , native Arabic, Farsi and Urdu speakers to translate the inscriptions.
First " Arabic" person told me that it was not in Arabic.
Farsi and Urdu were similarly rejected.
But then, one of those colleagues sent pics to her friend, a Saudi Arabian guy, who told her that the only thing he could translate was "Oh Muhammed", and the rest was " blasphemous". That piqued my interest even more.
Apologize for the pic of the entire sword: that was taken when it was already sold and the pics could not be adjusted.

Asking general opinions and Kwiatek's help with translation.
Many thanks.

[kwiatek]

Originally Posted by ariel

Sold on E-Bay.
This is an Ethiopian sword with straight blade 27 1/4" long, total 32".
Was advertised as Mamluk blade.
I was intrigued by the inscriptions and asked several colleagues , native Arabic, Farsi and Urdu speakers to translate the inscriptions.
First " Arabic" person told me that it was not in Arabic.
Farsi and Urdu were similarly rejected.
But then, one of those colleagues sent pics to her friend, a Saudi Arabian guy, who told her that the only thing he could translate was "Oh Muhammed", and the rest was " blasphemous". That piqued my interest even more.
Apologize for the pic of the entire sword: that was taken when it was already sold and the pics could not be adjusted.

Asking general opinions and Kwiatek's help with translation.
Many thanks.

It’s Arabic with lots of mistakes and done probably by a non-native speaker or by someone semi-literate.

“There’s no hero but ‘Ali, no sword but Dhu’l-Fiqar. ‘And tell the good tidings to the believers (Qur’an 61:13, in part).’ O Muhammad!”

The interesting bit is the difficult bit, of course. The last words are probably the maker’s or owner’s name. It’s spelled:

“Dhah-Kir al-Faranji”

Al-Faranji means “the European”. The first name is not an Arabic name. I can scout around to see if I can come up with anything

[ariel]

Thanks.
A semi-literate European....
What a disappointment! I hoped it might be a Kharijite " blasphemy" :-(((

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks.
A semi-literate European....
What a disappointment! I hoped it might be a Kharijite " blasphemy" :-(((

I’m not very knowledgeable on the subject but the reference to Ali might be Shiite which could be ”blasphemous” in the eyes of a Saudi (Sunni)?

[ariel]

Regretfully it doesn't seem to be true: Ali is venerated by both branches.
One of the most popular saying of Muhammed is " There is no hero like Ali, no sword like Zulfikar". It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Regretfully it doesn't seem to be true: Ali is venerated by both branches.
One of the most popular saying of Muhammed is " There is no hero like Ali, no sword like Zulfikar". It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.

But why? Ariel do you have an explanation about that?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Al-Faranji means “the European”. The first name is not an Arabic name. I can scout around to see if I can come up with anything

Your translations are really cool, thanks!

Only one point, I think al faranji means the foreigner.
Of course most of the time Europeans.
The word comes from the Crusades, Franks, Faranj.
Also used Roumi, the foreigners and Christians, from the Byzantine or Easterm Roman Empire... Roumi=Romans...

So the foreigner might be an Ethiopian - Christian - but it's just my opinion...

[broadaxe]

Arab countries Jews used the term 'faranji' to describe all things European, especially attire, accessories, manners.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

But why? Ariel do you have an explanation about that?

Explanation for what?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Your translations are really cool, thanks!

Only one point, I think al faranji means the foreigner.
Of course most of the time Europeans.
The word comes from the Crusades, Franks, Faranj.
Also used Roumi, the foreigners and Christians, from the Byzantine or Easterm Roman Empire... Roumi=Romans...

So the foreigner might be an Ethiopian - Christian - but it's just my opinion...

Were there Ethiopian Franks??? I think the Arabs have another word for Christian. I may be wrong but I thought Faranji would be Europeans. The meaning may have expanded to include all foreigners?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Explanation for what?

for
Ali is venerated by both branches.
It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.
why?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Were there Ethiopian Franks??? I think the Arabs have another word for Christian. I may be wrong but I thought Faranji would be Europeans. The meaning may have expanded to include all foreigners?

Have you ever heard about the myth of Prester John?

Yes you are right as I said Faranji were mainly Europeans but foreigners in general, this extended outside Arab lands up to India...

(Firangi sword)

[TVV]

The other side of this blade with the fullers is also quite interesting, and certainly above what we typically coming from Sudan in terms of craftsmanship. The Mameluke attribution may be a bit of a leap, but it is certainly a nicer and potentially older blade. How old and from where I am not qualified to speculate.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

for
Ali is venerated by both branches.
It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.
why?

Because Ali was a commanding figure during Muhammed’s life, a hero according to Muhammed himself. As such, he deservedly earned respect and admiration of the entire Umma and his role had never been forgotten by any Muslim.

However, that did not mean that according to the majority he deserved to become a Caliph. And that was the crux of the matter.

He is venerated by Sunni and Shia alike , but for different reasons. For Sunni he was an outstanding hero, but no more. For Shia, as a direct descendant of Muhammed, he was a legitimate Caliph unjustly deprived of the mantle, and no less.

In no small measure, the divide follows political traditions of Bedouins from Arabia proper, who democratically elected their leader and Shia who followed dynastical system of ancient Persia.

After that, history records centuries of bloodshed between the branches that persists even now. Per Sunni list of enemies, Shias are Numero Uno, far ahead of idolaters and Jews, and vice versa. Not for nothing contemporary Iran and Saudi Arabia are at each other throats. Geopolitical and financial ( oil) considerations are fueled by the remembrances of the battle of Karbala.

[Kubur]

Nobody spotted the bolster? Is it Ethiopian?

Definitively not Mamluk they don't mention Ali.

Thank you Ariel, so in short Ali is a hero for both Sunni and Shia.

I have the feeling that it's more complicated than that...

There is no deep meaning?

[Martin Lubojacky]

It may be the sword is coming from Sudan or bordering area with Ethiopia. As far as graven inscription is concerned, I think there was influence of Iranian weapons in Sudan (?)

Inscriptions: Years ago I bought a shamshir in Libya with the names of Seven Sleepers on the blade and acc. to the Arabic language professor it was also written by illiterate person. I think there is nothing strange on it (that times ...).

The word "Ferench" is still used in Amharic language (in Ethiopia) for the foreigners of different flesh-colour (but now it is becoming to be replaced, especially by young and uneducated people, by "China").

[ariel]

Seven Sleepers was originally a Christian legend, with the earliest mention in Syriac sources. It was mentioned in the Koran ( with no number ) and thus became a part of Muslim theology, with perhaps the widest spread among the Sufis. Multiple Ottoman Yataghans carry inscriptions with their names. After all, the most popular location of the cave was near Ephesus. It is not a surprise that Libyan blade carried it: Ottoman influence was strong there.

I am also not surprised by the poor literacy of the inscriptions: bladesmiths all over the world were manual laborers, not exquisitely educated grammarians.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

It may be the sword is coming from Sudan or bordering area with Ethiopia.

Yes we had in the past a discussion about the Sudanese swords as token of war by Ethiopians and vice-versa Ethiopian swords reused by Sudanese and finally ended in Yemen...

I can see something like that or the opposite: Yemen, Sudan and finally mounted as a gurade by his Ethiopian owner.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Because Ali was a commanding figure during Muhammed’s life, a hero according to Muhammed himself. As such, he deservedly earned respect and admiration of the entire Umma and his role had never been forgotten by any Muslim.

Thank you Ariel for your explanation. I agree with you for the basics, Ali was considered as a great fighter and a hero. The same is true for the sword zulfiqar given by the Prophet to Ali.

Inscriptions mentionning Ali and Zulfiqar were talismanic symbols used to protect the owner of the weapon and to give him some strength or even supernatural powers.

لا فتى إلا علي لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار‎
lā fatā ʾillā ʿAlī; lā sayf ʾillā Ḏū l-Fiqār.
"There is no hero like Ali; There is no sword like Dhu-l-Fiqar"

Why Ali is popular in the Sunni world?

In fact it's more complicated than simply Ali the perfect warrior and shinny knight of Islam.

Ali and Zulfiqar are parts of the symbols used in many sufi sects, including dervishes in Iran and Sudan but also Bektasi janissaries in the Ottoman army and since at least the 13th c.
THis is the deep meaning of Ali and Zulfiqar in the Sunni world.

Kubur

[AJ1356]

I don't see anything blasphemous in the text. There are misspellings of course, seems like whoever inscribed it did so in phonetic way.
Ali ibn Abitaleb was the cousin of Mohammad (pbuh), not a direct descedant of him. His children with Fatima (as) and their lineage are considered direct descendants of The Prophet. He is respected greatly by both shia and sunny, revered more so by the shia. During the Umayaid dynasty it was standard practice to curse his name or speak ill of him due to political reasons, this practice was abolished towards the end of that dynasty. This of course was not supported by mainstream scholars of that time, many of whom were murdered because they refused to follow that practice. Also, this is the reason the shias tried to counter this by speaking more highly of him.
He was great warrior among other virtues, and was gifted Zulfiqar by The Prophet, a sword that was given to The Prophet by angel Gabriel. Thus goes the saying carved on many swords in Muslim lands.

In the Indian subcontinent the term Firangi (G pronounced like gulf) is another way Firanji is used, pretty much same meaning.

On another note, Zulfiqar is spelled with ذ which sounds like Z, not with ض which could sound like Dh.

Hopefully this was helpful.

[kwiatek]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

I don't see anything blasphemous in the text. There are misspellings of course, seems like whoever inscribed it did so in phonetic way.
Ali ibn Abitaleb was the cousin of Mohammad (pbuh), not a direct descedant of him. His children with Fatima (as) and their lineage are considered direct descendants of The Prophet. He is respected greatly by both shia and sunny, revered more so by the shia. During the Umayaid dynasty it was standard practice to curse his name or speak ill of him due to political reasons, this practice was abolished towards the end of that dynasty. This of course was not supported by mainstream scholars of that time, many of whom were murdered because they refused to follow that practice. Also, this is the reason the shias tried to counter this by speaking more highly of him.
He was great warrior among other virtues, and was gifted Zulfiqar by The Prophet, a sword that was given to The Prophet by angel Gabriel. Thus goes the saying carved on many swords in Muslim lands.

In the Indian subcontinent the term Firangi (G pronounced like gulf) is another way Firanji is used, pretty much same meaning.

On another note, Zulfiqar is spelled with ذ which sounds like Z, not with ض which could sound like Dh.

Hopefully this was helpful.

This is not of general interest, so please feel free to ignore! It's not my goal to be pedantic, but since you brought it up I thought I'd respond.

There is no one system for transliteration of Arabic/Persian/Ottoman Turkish, but the most common transliteration method for ذ in an Arabic inscription, which is what this is, is with "dh". This is pronounced like "th" as in English "the" in Arabic, and as you say z in Persian and also in Turkish. Since this is an Arabic inscription, it's better to use the transliteration system for Arabic which would be "Dhu'l-Fiqar". Also, the most common way of transliterating ض is a ḍ with a dot below it for Arabic or a ż with a dot above it in Persian. For a chart with the IJMES system, which is the most commonly used in publications, see link below. Everyone else, apologies for the boring post!

https://www.tandf.co.uk//journals/au...ationChart.pdf

[Kubur]

oh Kiwiatek you are amazing!
I'm your fan number 2 after Ariel