8th September 2014, 09:27 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Breech-Loading Swivel Gun / Cannon For Comment
I don't know a lot about breech-loading swivel guns / cannon. This one appears to be of the type that were made in (or for use in) the East Indies.
After photographing the cannon last week, I misplaced my measurements. But it seems to me that it was about 50 inches long. I will measure again when I visit the storage unit. These photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved. Last edited by dana_w; 8th September 2014 at 10:41 PM. |
8th September 2014, 10:24 PM | #2 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
A breech loading 'berço' in a lantaka dress.
Whether made in the West to trade in Asia or made in Asia with a Western touch. Either an 'aged' non operational item for international trade or local home wealth, or (hardly) the real thing. These devices are a bit tricky to classify. Experts needed. |
8th September 2014, 10:38 PM | #3 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Quote:
|
|
8th September 2014, 10:54 PM | #4 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Quote:
|
|
8th September 2014, 11:02 PM | #5 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Quote:
|
|
9th September 2014, 02:58 AM | #6 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
Hi Dana W,
For stylistic as well as formal reasons, this breechloading bronze cannon barrel is closely datable to ca. 1530-1550; many of these are of Portuguese manufacture - now, does this give you some patriotic satisfaction, Nando? The zigzag ornamentation cast in high relief and contoured by chiseling, is highly unusual for Asia, while characteristic of the Nuremberg Early Renaissance style. If made in a Nuremberg foundry, it should be dated to ca. 1525-40. Please note Nando's thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+breechloading and by the author: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...h+loading+1540 Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 9th September 2014 at 03:11 AM. |
9th September 2014, 03:27 AM | #7 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Thanks for your comments Michael. Your thread "Breech loading 1450-1550" is one of my favorites here at the forum. It should be required reading.
The muzzle and forward portion of barrel looks like it has been in a fire. |
9th September 2014, 01:06 PM | #8 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Quote:
The zigzag (bamboo shoot ) motives are in low relief and are usual for Asia. This would be one of the common components of a Lantaka decoration . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=lantaka I agree, as i first mentioned, that the breech loading style is that of a 'berço', a term implying that this would be of Portuguese nature and of the date suggested . I wouldn't recall the date the lantaka (with such decoration type) appeared but, apart from that and if i may, i still suspect that this whole set may well be a knock off, either for (not so transparent) Web selling purposes or, as often happens, for local use, like for home decoration, wedding dowry, trade currency, etc. Nowadays artificial ageing of things is far from being discerned by those non initiated, myself for one. Perhaps some solid data on its provenance might help clarify. . Last edited by fernando; 9th September 2014 at 01:18 PM. |
|
9th September 2014, 02:13 PM | #9 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Quote:
If you think this piece may have been "artificially aged" Fernando, can you explain why? What do you see in the photos that makes you think that could be the case? Or are you just suspicious of any of these cannons? |
|
9th September 2014, 02:43 PM | #10 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Quote:
And yes, to my eyes a couple contours in this example you posted looks far more decorative than operational ... the wedge vent rims and not only. But of course, other members with far more knowledge may tell you more about the subject; even simply correct me. |
|
9th September 2014, 06:55 PM | #11 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
Quote:
Best, Michael |
|
9th September 2014, 07:34 PM | #12 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
Quote:
Of course they are, Nando, But when they appear on cast-copper alloy barrels (brass or bonze), it is only on items after ca. 1550. The reason is that they started importing barrels with that zigzag ornament from Nuremberg from the early 16th century. By and by they must have started taking over, and copying, the appearance of those barrels they called lantakas - that "magic" zigzag decoration included. Very soon, though, their native Indonesian stylistic elements seem to have prevailed, and this, in my opinion, is why you can tell apart an early 16th century barrel from a similar but Indonesia made, within seconds. Originally, the zigzag ornament goes back to the early 14th century, when it became known as der fränkische Rechen (the Franconian rake), and consequently characteristic of identifying, and representing, the Franconian region by its official coat-of-arms. Nürnberg has always been the capital of Franconia, as well as the important political, cultural, and economic center. So this is what that zigzag ornament originally stood for, and was meant to convey to people on far-off continents: the power and unparalleled leading quality, as well as the topic stylistical taste, of all goods that were made in, and exported from, Nuremberg, Franconia. There was a well-known saying since the 15th century: "Nürnberger Tand geht in alle Land", meaning: Nuremberg manufactured objects of both everyday use and artwork were exported to the rest of the world - at least the parts known by then. Attached find two Nuremberg founded brass/bronze haquebut barrels preserved in the Museum of Gerolzhofen, Franconia, that I will introduce in another thread. They both were cast in the 1530's, and one of them is dated 1538 in high relief. Both show the Franconian rake, as a proof of their Nuremberg manufactured quality. Could you please point me to a lantaka of such an early date? I'd be grateful for learning more on their histor. Best, Michl All photos in this post copyrighted by the author, Michael Trömner. Last edited by Matchlock; 9th September 2014 at 10:49 PM. |
|
9th September 2014, 10:08 PM | #13 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Here is another image for your perusal.
This photo is copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved. |
10th September 2014, 11:07 AM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
It's a 15th/16thC portuguese or spanish breechloading swivel cannon.
those 15th and 16th century breechloading cannons look all alike , like peas in a pot. This type of gun is thought to have been cast in Goa, Portuguese India however they were also produced in Macao during this period. they were made for the spanish and portuguese. there are a lot of fakes on the market, whether yours is real unfortunately I can not tell from the pictures. The core was held in the middle by thin iron wires, during the casting. perhaps there are still traces of these wires showing on the skin. (small rust spots). best, |
10th September 2014, 02:53 PM | #15 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Quote:
Here is a closeup which shows a few previously inexplicable spots of rust. |
|
10th September 2014, 06:34 PM | #16 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Hoi Jasper,
I assume you have a lot more 'mileage' than me in these things; this is the first time i see a typical breech loading chamber combined with a lantaka cannon. Maybe this is common to your eyes, but certainly new to me. Breech loading 'berços' of various sizes were made by Portuguese (and Spanish) for their ships and auxiliary rowing boats, whereas lantakas were made for trade in Asia. I would always realize that this atypical device was made to please somebody or anybody, rather than for crude battle ... one of the peas in a pot |
10th September 2014, 07:14 PM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
Hi Fernando,
Here is a nice article that you're sure to love. http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm for a similar cannon as above in #1 please google cannonsuperstore >>>> Spanish cannons best jasper |
10th September 2014, 08:42 PM | #18 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Thsnk you so much for the link and for being so thoughtful, Jasper .
As a matter of fact i know Rainer Daehnhardt, with whom i have a fair relation. A lot of knowledge that i transmit here in the forum comes from his books and 'lectures' i receive when i periodicaly visit his shop in Cascais ... as also (a couple times) in his house, where he has an imense (i mean imense) collection. I am also aware of the article you linked and i also met its author Antonio Cejunior when he came (from Macau) to Portugal to visit his family. I visited the cannon site you suggested and i saw the cannon you refer; not so 'lantaka style' as the one posted here, i would say ... don't you agree? . Not pointing at any source in particular, i don't feel safe with determined attributions like antiquity and provenance, specialy when it comes to 'Portuguese' or 'Spanish' cannons conotations ... discoveries period and all that. Indeed cannon foundries were settled in Macau (the famous Bocarro family) but i don't know if the typology produced there is connected with lantakas ... or even 16th century breech loading berços. Dank u once again |
10th September 2014, 08:58 PM | #19 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
A couple (forbidden) pictures connected with the discussed topic in the Daehnhardt farm.
. |
11th September 2014, 08:14 AM | #20 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
|
very nice pictures, thanks, I would love to have garden like this.
the local foundries in SE Asia used local bronze patterns for the cannon decorations. I believe this deep relief breech decoration points more into the direction of GOA I/o brunei , Malacca, Pahang or European foundries. a specialist in these eastern patterns might be able to give definite outcome here! best, |
12th September 2014, 04:57 PM | #21 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
|
Exactly, Jasper,
That's a setting unimaginable to ever surpass ... ! Thanks for showing, and best, Michael |
12th September 2014, 08:04 PM | #22 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,739
|
Quote:
Stu |
|
13th September 2014, 05:51 PM | #23 | |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
Quote:
. |
|
29th June 2019, 12:11 PM | #24 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
|
Fascinating peace!
Your cannon looks like Javanese-pre Islamic cetbang cannon from the late Majapahit period (that ended in 1527). Javanese were making cannons from 14 century after as they have mastered mass-production of bronze.
Portuguese came to Indonesian archipelago in 1511, so probably Javanese improved their design under Portuguese influence (or vice versa?). Decorations look like from the late Majapahit, they look like pre-Islamic period. Islamic period started in 1527. I think that you have a very valuable piece. Lantaka, somehow similar cannon but not breech loader, was mass produced, however, cetbangs are quite rare, especially decorated like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetbang http://fotosulawesi.blogspot.com/201...-kerajaan.html |
29th June 2019, 12:32 PM | #25 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
Quote:
|
|
29th June 2019, 01:05 PM | #26 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
|
Another similar cannon is in Istana (Royal Palace) Panembahan Matan in Muliakerta, West Borneo, Indonesia.
http://picdeer.com/media/1467774107953559456_692286653 |
|
|