European Hunting sword- asian style...

Jon MB · 19th October 2018, 02:56 PM

Nice. And mysterious. A 'chinoiserie' piece -(European in imagined Asian style)? Vietnamese?

Is the hilt on straight?

francantolin · 19th October 2018, 08:09 PM

Hello,
Thank you for your message Jon,

Yes the hilt is ''fixed'' and the different pieces seems to ''join'' good with each other.
I don't think it's a composite dagger-sword...

certainly an oriental influence for european people as you said
( orientalistes... )

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2018, 08:10 PM

Interesting item, and the European 'hunting sword' idea is I think pretty much spot on. The hilt shape recalls the couteau de chasse hunting hangers of the 18th century, while the blade seems very much Chinese dao.

The decoration on the hilt is indeed chinoiserie (Chinese style) and while I am unsure may be of the plum blossom theme (which usually looked more like seaweed in these applications).

Though the guard is very much like Chinese jian in style, in the 18th century Europeans, probably greatly inspired by the East Indies trade and the VOC eagerly looked for exotic styles in material culture and fashion. This of course extended to weaponry and such exotica in sword design was often termed 'Tonquinese' which actually meant indirectly 'Chinese' (in the west Tonkin meant N. Viet Nam while Cochin referred to the south).

This derived from a mixture of the fact that the VOC had a factory in Tonkin (North Vietnam) until 1707 and later items actually produced in Peking were regarded in that context. To complicate matters some hilts were made using black shakudo motif, from the Japan points in the VOC network.

Aylward (1945, p.57) notes..." the Company (VOC) brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe who produced in Amsterdam".
This was of course in direct contact with Solingen, and it seems I have heard of other Chinese workers in East Europe as well.

In the mid 18th century the famed 'pandour' units of Austrian and Hungarian armies favored the 'Oriental' look , which often used various Ottoman as well as other tribal fashions and weapons of such styling. This hilt style is close to that effect, but further with Chinese styling and apparently blade.

Such exotic weaponry was very much status oriented and while not necessarily to these type units, it may well have been a gentlemans weapon alluding to them.

On the other hand, the presence of a Chinese blade on this might move the possibility back to China, where the Qian Long emperor in the latter 18th century very much favored 'foreign' styling in sword hilts and perhaps this design was in that manner.

Unique example with these possibilities.

Philip · 20th October 2018, 07:17 AM

The blade doesn't look Chinese at all to me. The almost universal characteristic of the fullering on Chinese curved single-edged blades (sabers and the like) is that they begin a short distance ahead of the guard. The forte thus being flat, giving the blade a wedge shaped section in that area. This flat area may be just plain, or it may be fitted for a tunkou or a metal sleeve usually with a scalloped profile. A fuller that runs all the way back to the shoulders of the blade at the junction of the tang is not in keeping with the tradition.

Philip · 20th October 2018, 07:19 AM

The decoration on the hilt is nowhere near any ornamental motif I've seen on either a Chinese or Vietnamese weapon.

Philip · 20th October 2018, 07:23 AM

Is the guard made "in the solid" or is there an elliptical mouth or opening where the blade comes out, to reveal a hollow center? Typically, a jian guard on a Qing-era hilt is hollow, to accept the end of the scabbard in order to achieve a weather-resistant fit. (coincidentally a similar fit is seen in the construction of later Ottoman kilij guards, although the sealing effect is negated somewhat by the dorsal slot on the throat of the scabbard to admit the curvature and contour of the blade)

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2018, 04:20 PM

Thank you Philip! Your insight on this is invaluable as you are the foremost authority on Chinese and East European arms in my opinion.

I see what you mean on the blade and fullering. What I was suggesting was that it seemed atypical for any hirschfanger or couteau de chasse blade I have seen, and perhaps in this context seemed Chinese in gestalt.

Having said that, what I was suggesting here was that this light sword overall may have been made in Europe recalling Chinese influences as I had noted with the imports brought in as well as in some cases workers from China being present in some workshops. It seems I have seen similar examples of these kinds of swords somewhere, perhaps it was in a Polish reference.

Clearly this decoration is not Chinese, but it does seem to allude to the style as seen from an interpretive view. Along with the also interpretive style of the guard (but here with notably European decorative character in the floral) ...perhaps this is indeed a version of sidearm meant to allude to the Chinese character in fashionable elements of swords of the times.

I recall talking with you some years back on the so called 'Tonquinese' style mentioned in Aylward, "The Smallsword in England" (1945). It seems to be that those influences in that sword form might have well extended into other swords such as these intended to recall or allude to such style from China.

Philip · 20th October 2018, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

The blade doesn't look Chinese at all to me. The almost universal characteristic of the fullering on Chinese curved single-edged blades (sabers and the like) is that they begin a short distance ahead of the guard. The forte thus being flat, giving the blade a wedge shaped section in that area. This flat area may be just plain, or it may be fitted for a tunkou or a metal sleeve usually with a scalloped profile. A fuller that runs all the way back to the shoulders of the blade at the junction of the tang is not in keeping with the tradition.

Here's a pic to show what I'm talking about. Here are 3 Chinese saber blades of "willow leaf" type, narrow and with curvature through most of length. The important thing is where the fullering ends. You'll note that the grooves don't run back to the guard. Even simple uni-channel designs all end a similar distance ahead of the guard.

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2018, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Here's a pic to show what I'm talking about. Here are 3 Chinese saber blades of "willow leaf" type, narrow and with curvature through most of length. The important thing is where the fullering ends. You'll note that the grooves don't run back to the guard. Even simple uni-channel designs all end a similar distance ahead of the guard.

Perfectly illustrated and explained Philip! I see exactly what you mean.

I wish I could think of where Ive seen something like this, seems like it was one of those Polish collection books which included not just Polish but other forms. I think possibly the Bashford Dean (1928) might have something as well but need to check ("European Court & Hunting Swords").

francantolin · 27th October 2018, 10:03 PM

Hello And thank you all,

really interesting comments about european/ asian swords.
I found this sword with the same guard.
Sold in an auction by Thierry de Maigret
( well known auction house in France) who has the same shape,
hunting knife, 18th century with bone hilt...

francantolin · 27th October 2018, 10:14 PM

Or this one who is exactly the same !
sold as a hunting dagger .

With the interesting engravings on the blade, German ?
or Pandour- Austrian/Ungarian army units as Jim said...

20th October 2018, 07:23 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	question re the guard Is the guard made "in the solid" or is there an elliptical mouth or opening where the blade comes out, to reveal a hollow center? Typically, a jian guard on a Qing-era hilt is hollow, to accept the end of the scabbard in order to achieve a weather-resistant fit. (coincidentally a similar fit is seen in the construction of later Ottoman kilij guards, although the sealing effect is negated somewhat by the dorsal slot on the throat of the scabbard to admit the curvature and contour of the blade)

27th October 2018, 10:03 PM	#10
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 840	Hello And thank you all, really interesting comments about european/ asian swords. I found this sword with the same guard. Sold in an auction by Thierry de Maigret ( well known auction house in France) who has the same shape, hunting knife, 18th century with bone hilt... Attached Images

27th October 2018, 10:14 PM	#11
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 840	Or this one who is exactly the same ! sold as a hunting dagger . With the interesting engravings on the blade, German ? or Pandour- Austrian/Ungarian army units as Jim said... Attached Images

19th October 2018, 02:56 PM	#1
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Nice. And mysterious. A 'chinoiserie' piece -(European in imagined Asian style)? Vietnamese? Is the hilt on straight?

19th October 2018, 08:09 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 840	Hello, Thank you for your message Jon, Yes the hilt is ''fixed'' and the different pieces seems to ''join'' good with each other. I don't think it's a composite dagger-sword... certainly an oriental influence for european people as you said ( orientalistes... )

19th October 2018, 08:10 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Interesting item, and the European 'hunting sword' idea is I think pretty much spot on. The hilt shape recalls the couteau de chasse hunting hangers of the 18th century, while the blade seems very much Chinese dao. The decoration on the hilt is indeed chinoiserie (Chinese style) and while I am unsure may be of the plum blossom theme (which usually looked more like seaweed in these applications). Though the guard is very much like Chinese jian in style, in the 18th century Europeans, probably greatly inspired by the East Indies trade and the VOC eagerly looked for exotic styles in material culture and fashion. This of course extended to weaponry and such exotica in sword design was often termed 'Tonquinese' which actually meant indirectly 'Chinese' (in the west Tonkin meant N. Viet Nam while Cochin referred to the south). This derived from a mixture of the fact that the VOC had a factory in Tonkin (North Vietnam) until 1707 and later items actually produced in Peking were regarded in that context. To complicate matters some hilts were made using black shakudo motif, from the Japan points in the VOC network. Aylward (1945, p.57) notes..." the Company (VOC) brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe who produced in Amsterdam". This was of course in direct contact with Solingen, and it seems I have heard of other Chinese workers in East Europe as well. In the mid 18th century the famed 'pandour' units of Austrian and Hungarian armies favored the 'Oriental' look , which often used various Ottoman as well as other tribal fashions and weapons of such styling. This hilt style is close to that effect, but further with Chinese styling and apparently blade. Such exotic weaponry was very much status oriented and while not necessarily to these type units, it may well have been a gentlemans weapon alluding to them. On the other hand, the presence of a Chinese blade on this might move the possibility back to China, where the Qian Long emperor in the latter 18th century very much favored 'foreign' styling in sword hilts and perhaps this design was in that manner. Unique example with these possibilities.

20th October 2018, 07:17 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The blade doesn't look Chinese at all to me. The almost universal characteristic of the fullering on Chinese curved single-edged blades (sabers and the like) is that they begin a short distance ahead of the guard. The forte thus being flat, giving the blade a wedge shaped section in that area. This flat area may be just plain, or it may be fitted for a tunkou or a metal sleeve usually with a scalloped profile. A fuller that runs all the way back to the shoulders of the blade at the junction of the tang is not in keeping with the tradition.

20th October 2018, 07:19 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The decoration on the hilt is nowhere near any ornamental motif I've seen on either a Chinese or Vietnamese weapon.

20th October 2018, 04:20 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Thank you Philip! Your insight on this is invaluable as you are the foremost authority on Chinese and East European arms in my opinion. I see what you mean on the blade and fullering. What I was suggesting was that it seemed atypical for any hirschfanger or couteau de chasse blade I have seen, and perhaps in this context seemed Chinese in gestalt. Having said that, what I was suggesting here was that this light sword overall may have been made in Europe recalling Chinese influences as I had noted with the imports brought in as well as in some cases workers from China being present in some workshops. It seems I have seen similar examples of these kinds of swords somewhere, perhaps it was in a Polish reference. Clearly this decoration is not Chinese, but it does seem to allude to the style as seen from an interpretive view. Along with the also interpretive style of the guard (but here with notably European decorative character in the floral) ...perhaps this is indeed a version of sidearm meant to allude to the Chinese character in fashionable elements of swords of the times. I recall talking with you some years back on the so called 'Tonquinese' style mentioned in Aylward, "The Smallsword in England" (1945). It seems to be that those influences in that sword form might have well extended into other swords such as these intended to recall or allude to such style from China.