"A Passion for Indian Arms" Book Review

Ian · 23rd December 2017, 04:45 PM

I too have been watching this discussion with interest.

Likhari, the example you show in post #42 above would seem to not support your argument. What supporting structure would account for those holes? The elaborate decorative work above the holes would argue that no supporting structure existed, at least none that would obscure the fine chiseling and gold work. Also, they are not simple holes that have been filled with brass, but rather they look like stars with small radiating lines--they seem decorative in nature to my eyes, which would support Jens comment that these have some significance and are perhaps talismanic.

Ian

Mercenary · 23rd December 2017, 05:16 PM

There are a lot of patissa-khanda blades with holes and a little bit of sabre-tulwar blades. Why do you think?
It is need to see in what place of blade these holes located. In the most part it is a place of rivet I think.
Talismanic?

Mercenary · 23rd December 2017, 09:36 PM

Talismanic

Likhari · 23rd December 2017, 11:47 PM

Thank you for your interest Mercenary !

I think the location and the form of the holes is significant to their purpose. When they are present as three in the shape of a triangle they are usually off centered and could have no bracing purpose. In this case they either act as trademarks or have some aniconic symbolism.

Vedic religion encouraged iconography because they believed that God (Ishwar) is formless (Nirguna) and in order to meditate on him we humans, who can only perceive things through our senses, need something which has form (Saguna) therefore they invented deities which represented different aspects of the formless God. The original Vedic triad was Agni, Surya, and Rudra which by Puranic times has metamorphosed into the Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesha.

The iconography associated with the Trimurti was very precise but there also existed a significant aniconic representation of these deities which served the purpose (as opposed to the iconic) of acting as safeguards against reducing the divine to the level of the human. For example Shiva was represented by the Linga, Vishnu by the Saligrama, and Shakti by the Yoni. Yantras, Chakras, and Swastika would be other examples of the aniconic used in Hindu culture.

The three holes could also represent the three Guṇas (Qualities that make up a living being) - Sattva (Harmony), Rajas ( Passion) and Tamas (Chaos) - also represented by the three points of the Trishula.

They could represent the three main Nadis (Energy channels in the human body) - Ida, Pingala, and Sushumana.

They could also represent the three wheels of the chariot of the Moon - Which could have been of some importance to Chandravanshi Rajputs who claimed descent from the moon.

All this is of course pure speculation on my part. I am just throwing out some of the possibilities. Your guess is as good as mine.

Ian the points you raise are valid. The blade in #42 is currently in my possession.
I believe that the current brace with the fancy koftgari is the newest edition (late 19th century) of a number of braces that this old blade has had. The previous braces ran along the middle of the blade and were riveted through the metal filled holes. I agree with you that the shape of the holes is odd but that could have just been because of the shape of the chisel used to make them. The odd positioning of one of the holes could just be because of a different sized brace that was used in the past. I do not believe that they have any aniconic significance on this blade but I could always be wrong.

Mercenary · 24th December 2017, 04:57 AM

So we don't have accurate information about the significance of the three holes except for the trade mark or just simple decoration (if only the owners of these swords was all educated philosophers or theologians) and don't have information about any meanings of other holes in the case of Indian weapons, unlike of Chinese "seven stars" (I attached the photo above)?

ariel · 24th December 2017, 10:47 PM

Under normal circumstances I would agree that a single medial hole, filled or not, in the case of Jens’ sword and the one in #42 is just a remainder of the old brace. I do have a saber with an old European blade and Indo- Muslim ( Tulwar) handle the ricasso of which bears a footprint of an earlier brace of a basket hilt and an unfilled hole for a rivet.

However , in both cases presented here, there is not one but several such plugged holes in tight formations. I am unaware of any old khanda or patissa swords where the brace of the basket handle required so many tightly- grouped rivets at its distal end. One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual.

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me. But the use of these holes for purely “engineering” purposes
is dubious.

Battara · 25th December 2017, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me.

This is often true in Moro/Filipino and Indonesian examples. I offer this comparison to bolster the argument from cultures who had contacts with the Indian subcontinent.

Likhari · 28th December 2017, 05:49 PM

"One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual."

And from where my dear Dr. Barkan did you get the idea that it was unusual for an Indian blade to have multiple hilts during its lifetime ?

High quality blades like the one shown in #42 or the one shown by Jens were considered prized heirlooms in India. Hilts on Indian swords were changed at the slightest whim. Often times a Maharaja would come out with a slight variation of a traditional hilt and all his courtiers were required to use the same kind of hilt on their swords in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the Maharaja.

I am surprised that my fellow forumites are not using Occam's Razor in this discussion and are instead trying to look for exotic reason without being able to provide any reference whatsoever !

23rd December 2017, 05:16 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	There are a lot of patissa-khanda blades with holes and a little bit of sabre-tulwar blades. Why do you think? It is need to see in what place of blade these holes located. In the most part it is a place of rivet I think. Talismanic? Attached Images Last edited by Mercenary; 23rd December 2017 at 09:19 PM.

23rd December 2017, 09:36 PM	#3
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Talismanic Attached Images

23rd December 2017, 04:45 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,068	I too have been watching this discussion with interest. Likhari, the example you show in post #42 above would seem to not support your argument. What supporting structure would account for those holes? The elaborate decorative work above the holes would argue that no supporting structure existed, at least none that would obscure the fine chiseling and gold work. Also, they are not simple holes that have been filled with brass, but rather they look like stars with small radiating lines--they seem decorative in nature to my eyes, which would support Jens comment that these have some significance and are perhaps talismanic. Ian

23rd December 2017, 11:47 PM	#4
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Thank you for your interest Mercenary ! I think the location and the form of the holes is significant to their purpose. When they are present as three in the shape of a triangle they are usually off centered and could have no bracing purpose. In this case they either act as trademarks or have some aniconic symbolism. Vedic religion encouraged iconography because they believed that God (Ishwar) is formless (Nirguna) and in order to meditate on him we humans, who can only perceive things through our senses, need something which has form (Saguna) therefore they invented deities which represented different aspects of the formless God. The original Vedic triad was Agni, Surya, and Rudra which by Puranic times has metamorphosed into the Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesha. The iconography associated with the Trimurti was very precise but there also existed a significant aniconic representation of these deities which served the purpose (as opposed to the iconic) of acting as safeguards against reducing the divine to the level of the human. For example Shiva was represented by the Linga, Vishnu by the Saligrama, and Shakti by the Yoni. Yantras, Chakras, and Swastika would be other examples of the aniconic used in Hindu culture. The three holes could also represent the three Guṇas (Qualities that make up a living being) - Sattva (Harmony), Rajas ( Passion) and Tamas (Chaos) - also represented by the three points of the Trishula. They could represent the three main Nadis (Energy channels in the human body) - Ida, Pingala, and Sushumana. They could also represent the three wheels of the chariot of the Moon - Which could have been of some importance to Chandravanshi Rajputs who claimed descent from the moon. All this is of course pure speculation on my part. I am just throwing out some of the possibilities. Your guess is as good as mine. Ian the points you raise are valid. The blade in #42 is currently in my possession. I believe that the current brace with the fancy koftgari is the newest edition (late 19th century) of a number of braces that this old blade has had. The previous braces ran along the middle of the blade and were riveted through the metal filled holes. I agree with you that the shape of the holes is odd but that could have just been because of the shape of the chisel used to make them. The odd positioning of one of the holes could just be because of a different sized brace that was used in the past. I do not believe that they have any aniconic significance on this blade but I could always be wrong. Attached Images

24th December 2017, 04:57 AM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	So we don't have accurate information about the significance of the three holes except for the trade mark or just simple decoration (if only the owners of these swords was all educated philosophers or theologians) and don't have information about any meanings of other holes in the case of Indian weapons, unlike of Chinese "seven stars" (I attached the photo above)?

24th December 2017, 10:47 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under normal circumstances I would agree that a single medial hole, filled or not, in the case of Jens’ sword and the one in #42 is just a remainder of the old brace. I do have a saber with an old European blade and Indo- Muslim ( Tulwar) handle the ricasso of which bears a footprint of an earlier brace of a basket hilt and an unfilled hole for a rivet. However , in both cases presented here, there is not one but several such plugged holes in tight formations. I am unaware of any old khanda or patissa swords where the brace of the basket handle required so many tightly- grouped rivets at its distal end. One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual. I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me. But the use of these holes for purely “engineering” purposes is dubious.

28th December 2017, 05:49 PM	#8
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	"One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual." And from where my dear Dr. Barkan did you get the idea that it was unusual for an Indian blade to have multiple hilts during its lifetime ? High quality blades like the one shown in #42 or the one shown by Jens were considered prized heirlooms in India. Hilts on Indian swords were changed at the slightest whim. Often times a Maharaja would come out with a slight variation of a traditional hilt and all his courtiers were required to use the same kind of hilt on their swords in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the Maharaja. I am surprised that my fellow forumites are not using Occam's Razor in this discussion and are instead trying to look for exotic reason without being able to provide any reference whatsoever !