The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM

Posted by:
Dom
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)

Hi every body

just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present

source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992)

à +

Dom

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:16 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM

Posted by.
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts!

I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6
'
Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality.
The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality.

I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc...
These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...)

All the Best
.
Jeff

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau

INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum"
IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol?
MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Rick,

I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before.

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Katana,

Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life.

All the Best
Jeff

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:18 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thank you Dom for the scan.

Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context.

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:18 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Its great to see more outstanding input keeping our thread going!
Dom, thank you so much for sharing the excerpts out of Lebedynsky's great book, and excellent resource that never gets the recognition it deserves. What a perfect Christmas gift .

Jeff, Im glad you're back, and I know this time of year is pretty hectic. As always, you've done an excellent job of compiling data and keeping perspective on the ongoing observations, especially good information on those Latin worded religious invocations.
Interesting on the clearly later added inscription on the Polish sabre, which seem to have been crudely added in imitation of much earlier markings that recall the 'fringia' mark and as you note, numeric applications of dots.
Something that comes to mind with the dots are arrangements of dots relating to religious invocation on the 'paternoster' blades. Need to add more on these and the varying dot arrangements.

Fernando, as always you are on course with your perspectives on the Latin invocations, and I agree that there were corrupted applications often, and that in the ever widening range of copying popular phrases and symbols, much of the original symbolism is lost.

I often wonder just how ancient is this use of marks, invocation and symbolism on weapons. While most of our discussion goes back to the Medeival period, we know that Viking swords carried invocations and superstitious symbolism. I believe that in those swords, typically the Frankish made weapons had makers names in the hilt.

Lets look into the dot arrangements on the 'paternosters' and the Viking markings more.

Thanks very much guys,
All the best, and a very Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 07:15 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 01:07 AM Posted by: Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR) Cairo (EG) Hi every body just to stick on the initial subject, "Early makers trade marks" here attached my X-Mas / New Year present source "Les Armes Orientales" édition "du Portail" by Iaroslay Lebedynsky (1992) à + Dom (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:13 PM.*

18th October 2017, 07:16 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 07:17 PM Posted by. Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Sorry guys about my very slow response, this time of year is nuts! I have been reading with great interest the comments on the orbs, crosses and anchors, and am thrilled to see Eljay here! The significance of these symbols has been mentioned. The possibility that they may be makers marks, simple decorations and religious/magical symbols, has been noted. I think to some extent all of these observations are true. I would like to add one more, and that is a mark of quality. Victor Diehl writes in Chapter 1 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume I on Pg 6 ' Frequently, sword blades are found that are marked with the master smith's name and one or more "running wolves" or "Reichs apples." Both of these symbols have long been regarded as identifying blades of the highest quality. The "running wolf" blade mark has a lengthy history in Germany. The trademarks were first used in Passau in the late 13th Century. By the 15th Century, this mark was regarded as a symbol of highest quality throughout Germany. Since blades marked with the running wolves brought higher prices than other trademarks, forgeries began to appear. The first large-scale copies began in Koln around 1460. In order to stop this infringement, the city of Passau petitioned the city of Koln to halt the use of the wolf mark by smiths working within its jurisdiction. In order to comply, the the city banned the use of the wolf mark in 1464. However, smiths outside Koln, including many in Solingen, were not affected by the law. Therefore, the use of the spurious "running wolf" mark continued and was so widespread by 1550 that few people could identify genuine Passau blades. In spite of this, the wolf mark has grown to become a general mark of quality. I suspect this is basic commerce 101 and is a universal trend as we can see with the other marks noted above ie; Andrea Ferrera, eyelash, moons, Assadollah, Wilkinson "Proved" marks etc... These quotes also reiterates alot of what Jim has been telling us and confirms fernando's observations about the anchor trends not being exclusive to a specific region. (it also explains why I get e-mail spam from china for cheap Rolexs, Viagra, etc...) All the Best . Jeff Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:42 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum" IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol? MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:43 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Rick, I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before. All the Best Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:43 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Katana, Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life. All the Best Jeff (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:13 PM.

18th October 2017, 07:18 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,666	Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thank you Dom for the scan. Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context. All the Best Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:45 AM.