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Old 13th September 2016, 05:37 PM   #31
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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So where is this form from and is the hilt related to the Somalian dagger hilt shown...? The Billao; A billao (Somali: billaawe), also known as a belawa, is a horn-hilted Somali shortsword. It served most notably as a close-quarters weapon in the Dervish State, at the turn of the 20th century.
The dagger has a double-edged, leaf-shaped, asymmetrical blade and a three-pronged pommel. One-pronged pommels with the metal tang protruding out from the center of the hilt

I place a Yemeni Nimcha variant on white background with silver in the Hilt for further comparison...Are they related?

The indications are that the project weapon is typical for a Saudia Arabian style with an all silvered hilt. Plate 30 Butin shows 1009 as being the same weapon which he simply calls Arabian.
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Old 13th September 2016, 09:17 PM   #32
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Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

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Old 13th September 2016, 09:36 PM   #33
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I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .
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Old 14th September 2016, 02:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .



Hello Jim, Thank you for your post; The 3 prong device on the pommel may well be something Talismanic as we know three dots appears as some sort of protection...It could be a reference to the three religions Islam Christianity and Judaism or a similar three in one protector as you point out (the fleur de lys is associated with that also) as I believe are the 3 bead structure on the Islamic bead string placed to prevent evil climbing up .On the hawkshead I'm afraid that was probably me... as not knowing Karabela at the time I wrongly stuck that name on those hilts that resembled hawks heads...
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Old 14th September 2016, 02:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor


Fair enough and perhaps I should have pointed out that it may not be clear which way the design flowed. Is it possible that the Somali dagger style with pronged hilt took that form from the Nimcha shown?
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Old 14th September 2016, 06:00 PM   #36
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Default Kopis??

On tracing back through Forum I spotted this picture below...What is the relationship if any with this weapon and the Nimcha ?
Note Genoa bite marks all down the backblade and the hint of something Zoomorphic in the hilt with an eye...Is this a horse head? Note the appearance of a nock at the top of the grip and the knuckle guard. This weapon is said to influence another; the Falceta Iberian weapon...Comments please?


See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11617
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:21 AM   #37
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Whilst members may be thinking about the question above I have noted the following website details of a Moroccan Nimcha...(I find it interesting and worthy of a note in the margin that the report refers to This large saber or nimcha at the very beginning whilst we have a suggestion earlier that Nimcha meant half sword. Perhaps this can be discussed later? In other words does Nimcha mean something else?)

please see http://www.musee-delacroix.fr/en/th...ca/saber-nimcha from which I Quote"

This large saber or nimcha
-a masculine accessory and symbol of tribe and rank-is one of the objects that Delacroix brought back from his trip to Morocco in 1832. The splendid weapons, musical instruments, textiles, and leather and ceramic items owned by the Musée Delacroix came from the collection of Charles Cournault (1815 - 1904), an Orientalist painter to whom Delacroix bequeathed most of his North African souvenirs.


The blade of the saber has three grooves. The manufacturer’s mark is perhaps visible under the hilt whose three quillons are decorated with a rosette motif inlaid with gold and silver threads in a cartouche. A floral and plant design runs around a copper ring encircling the hilt, and there is a beautiful marbled effect on the horn handle. The top of the leather scabbard is encircled by a velvet band on a leather background, onto which the straps for holding or hanging the saber are attached. Its lower part has a gold decoration featuring two floral elements, edged with a net design.
Delacroix’s trip to Morocco

In 1832, Eugène Delacroix traveled to Morocco with the diplomatic delegation of the Comte de Mornay, ambassador extraordinary from King Louis-Philippe to Sultan Moulay Abd-el-Rahman. His trip lasted from January to July, during which time he traveled from Tangiers to Meknes, visiting Algeria and southern Spain on his journey home. Delacroix was so delighted by his discovery of this place "made for painters" with its dazzling light and magical colors that between his return and his death he produced some 80 paintings with North African themes (plus countless sketches). His Oriental scenes, fantasias, military exercises, and portraits of Arabs include scrupulously rendered costumes and accessories: this type of nimcha saber with its hooked pommel, for example, is clearly recognizable near the Soldiers Sleeping in a Guardroom (watercolor, private collection), or hanging behind Chief Mohammed Ben Abu in Delacroix’s portraits of him in watercolor (private collection) and etching (Musée Delacroix)".Unquote.
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Old 22nd September 2016, 01:06 AM   #38
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Default Nimcha~ What's in a word?

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Old 22nd September 2016, 01:11 AM   #39
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Default Nimcha~ What's in a word?

I touched on the interesting puzzle surrounding the use of a Persian/Baluch word and thus the reflection of that word in describing the Moroccan Regional and Zanzibar Regional sword generally known as The Nimcha.
This thread shows similarities and differences in the weapon used in two distinctly different regions yet carrying the same name. The only actual real common denominator is the name! The blade, Hilt, Quillons, Guard and even how it is suspended plus the decoration and Scabbard are different. It is as if some one from each region copied a sword but added all the regional variety of style to their own version. In essence I suspect that is the message from the famous Butin Charts of Nimcha from these different locations.

Nimcha means half sword... It could mean short sword...but from Persian / Baluchi who had no contact between Zanzibar and Morocco~ or did they? Both Burton and Tipu Tib used Baluchi mercenaries as guards into and out of central Africa...in doing so the cross Saharan trade routes were at their beckoning thus the name/general style may have spread to Moroccan and North African neighbors of Morocco...or direct.

Another simple explanation cites the mispronunciation of another weapon...The Shamshiir...(Shamshir~ Nimcha) Anything is possible...

Could the name Nimcha mean something else such as sharp on one edge? Half Sword...Generally that could satisfy the same name being used on each sword...

Nimcha also means half jacket...actually a waistcoat commonly worn by Baluchis but is a word from the Uzbekistan region and straddling central Asia.

Is it possible that the sword's name spread because it was carried by Baluchi mercenaries (Nimcha; waistcoat wearers) employed by Omani rulers including Saiid bin Sultan all down the Zanj, Zanzibar, and in the service of the Sultans before and after Saiid's Reign in 1804 to 1856... and focused on Zanzibar from about 1830. See http://www.indiana.edu/~ctild/Centr...ary/Accessories and note Nimcha waistcoat picture...on a website looking at Turkic and Iranian dialect and lexicography..Baluchistan straddles two countries ...Iran and Pakistan.

The previous post notes that the sword is referred to as a large saber ...when if the word is meant to describe small(half) swords how can it be also be described as meaning large?

Given that it seems Morocco developed a sword of this nature before Zanzibar with that particular similar grip to the hilt; Which way did influence flow? Who could have transmitted style/form to the Indian Ocean? Actually there are many... There were big battle fleets in the Indian Ocean from Ottoman, Mameluke, Venetian and Portuguese in the 15th/16thC any one of which could be responsible for this transmission or War as a key pointer. It could have bounced off Indian designers and on to Zanzibar through trade...via any of the important sea trader families in the Indian Ocean. The same can be said about Omani influence; already illustrated by the sword at post #1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 showing how the weapon had diffused to African countries probably through Zanzibar at least as far as Tunisia !!

The exact form of technical transfer may never be pinpointed, however, the common denominator appears to be Trade...and from what appears to be an original design concocted in the Mediterranean basin for which a strong indicator may be Italian ( Genoa may well be in the frame ) The other design indicator of the huge chopping blade is at #19 and #24 which points to a mixed stable of blade decorators and is difficult to tie down to a specific country but somewhere in the Central or Eastern Mediterranean...Italian or Ottoman?

Finally, is it plausible that the sword originally began in East Mediterranean centres diffused West to North African countries and South down the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean Zanzibar Regions but that its name rebounded from there to encompass the Moroccan Regional style absorbing the name Nimcha through some link with The Baluchi Mercenaries of Oman/Zanj and by trans North African trade routes? I therefor suggest War and Trade as being primary movers in this regard.

Your comments are invited..

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Old 24th September 2016, 01:52 PM   #40
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Nimcha... Did the word mean sword of the men in waistcoats( Nimcha)...The Baluch.
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Old 26th September 2016, 03:29 PM   #41
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Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...43&page=4&pp=30 where there are good relevant parts of the thread worth considering supporting the essential concepts delivered here.
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Old 28th September 2016, 10:59 AM   #42
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See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 on #14 where this additional detail posted by Ariel; Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty".
Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

Does the word Nimcha therefor mean those people (or the sword they carry) who are sort of half converts...or doubtful new converts... An interesting theory...noted. This would point to Baluchis from that region working as Mercenaries on the Zanj I assume.

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Old 28th September 2016, 02:05 PM   #43
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I discovered a French view of the Nimcha more in terms of how it transferred around the Mediterranean than its Southern sister...viz; Quote''
Le Nimcha du Maghreb
Présentation du Nimcha par Jean-François Teulière
Le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe

Le nimcha est appelé « Saïf »dans le monde arabe. C’est un terme commun aux langues sémitiques (araméen) et à l’arabe.En arabe il désigne une lame courbe et en hébreu une lame droite. C’est le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe, dont la diffusion fut assurée par les conquêtes ainsi que par les relations commerciales entre les pays sous l’influence ou la domination orientale: Arabie, Yémen, Oman et sa dépendance Zanzibar, Maghreb et Espagne Maure.
Pour certains, la poignée à quillons et garde de main serait d’origine italienne ou plus précisément aurait été connue des Arabes vers les 15 ème – 16 ème siècles via le commerce Gênois. Cf.: « Robert Elgood Arms – 1994 »."Unquote.

I suspect that no one other than European sword collectors actually called this weapon a Nimcha and as the above passage suggests they called it a Saif...In the same way today people call pretty well everything that is a sword...Saif. here in Oman. I also agree that Oriental influence had a good deal to play in transmission of technology in the old days and commerce and war had a big hand in it...In that case it is virtually certain to have passed through certain conduits on its way and Genoa has to be considered...

Many weapons from the Genoan stable effected Moroccan style...It cannot be ruled out. It is an odd feeling however since I appear to be back at the startline in a race which feels it has been run to its finishing point but somehow I hear the order from Mr Starter... On your marks! ready! set !... Go!!!
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Old 28th September 2016, 02:10 PM   #44
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By way of a summary here are the differences between A Moroccan and a Zanzibari Nimcha. It is obvious that the name is the same but any deeper into the reason is a conundrum and possibly a false impression simply applied and popularised by European sword collectors. On the other hand tracking through the possibilities certainly raises the awareness not least the post by Oliver Pinchot at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 where he notes the relationship with an article of clothing viz;

Quote"The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.''Unquote.

and the bells ring here where I note the potential link to the waistcoat often worn by Baluch males (called a Nimcha) and where it is known they were the mercenaries on the Zanj to Saaid Sultan..AKA Saaid the Great, who among other battles these famous Baluch mercenaries and Persian Naval units wrestled Fort Jesus from the Portuguese and in addition were the guards with Burton and Speke into Central Africa...and potentially transmitters of the weapons name Nimcha to North Africa..I thus acknowledge the very interesting information and include it here.

Moroccan.
1. Stud on the pommel top holding or anchoring the hilt and blade. Invariably round but occasionally an elongated (one inch x a quarter inch) metal strip.
2. No D Guard.
3. Arabesque decoration to guard Quillons and/or pommel base ring in silver or gold. (Often mirrored by the scabbard decor) Occasionally clossoned or enamel.
4. Pommel turned only to about 90 degrees perhaps for a larger hand.
5. Knuckle Guard with distinct right angle or elbow bend occasionally with a small round inscribed stud shape about half way along.
6. Blade occasionally lavishly inscribed in silver or gold in Arabic.
7. Finials to guard and quillons ending in bud style.
8. Occasional two prong/piton incorporation to guard.
9. Blades either short almost cutlass form or longer, slender sometimes clipped. Many displaying Genoa bite marks often called Hogs Back or Eye Lash marks.
10. Scabbard with worked silver or gold decoration lavishly applied in Clossone, gold or silver arranged to hang from a shoulder strap/ Baldric.


Zanzibari.
1. Turtle shape on top of Pommel holding or anchoring the hilt and blade.
2. Occasional D Guard.
3. Plain guard and base ring without arabesque decoration on a plain hilt often in Rhino or Ivory and in some a gold roundel and leaf pattern decorative style apparently the same as on some East African combs. The hilts in either Rhino or Ivory often display at the "horses mouth" an apparent geometrical OVO shaped decorative style.
4. Pommel more turned than 90 degrees perhaps for a smaller hand.
5. Knuckle guard rounded. Plain; never enameled.
6. Blade usually either plain or of the Red Sea variety but not lavishly done in Arabic.
7. Finials usually of the dragon or Yali / Makara form sometimes with a capital R and dots to the Quilons and Knuckle Guard ends but not all as some finials are small budded form.
8. Occasional D Guards marked like the Knuckle Guard with a substantial X in the mid section of each however this weapon can appear with none of the complexity of guards/quilons/knuckle guard etc but with the simple cross guard only. (Butin Charts refer)
9. Blades never clipped, invariably cutlass short form.
10. Scabbards simple; often with Omani decoration of Swirls or circles to leather. Occasionally with silver furniture and chape. This weapon worn on the waist.

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Old 30th September 2016, 12:55 PM   #45
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I cross reference a post here as; NIMCHA ... The Word.
From
Salaams Ariel... You are correct in several of your pointers to the peculiar name Nimcha apparently applied to the sword of Morocco and its sister from Zanzibar. The name used by locals in both regions is Sayf/Saif/Seyf. There are many questions or possibilities as to how the term Nimcha entered the equation not least that an enterprising sword collector "expert" gave the name and it stuck! because it "looked" the same.

Look at the previous post where it can be seen that apart from "a similar" hand grip the entire sword arrangement in both cases is chalk and cheese!
Regarding the Name Nimcha it is worth listing the possible reasons all of which hold water...for the Name; Nimcha;

1. Nim means half in Persian and Baluch. The connotation attached to the sword could mean half sword as applied also to half convert...meaning those half converts to Islam working among the Baluch on the Zanj in other words "the sword of the half converts".

2. The word Nimcha may mean blink of an eye to Moroccan people. ( This may be regional/ colloquial since they say blink of your eye in Morocco like this; ghamad ainak. )

3a. We know that military dress in the sub continent remained almost ancient until recently thus tie ups between apparel and weapons is common(and must be of antiquity) as per Oliver Pinchot's revelation about Salawar and the Pantaloon style of dress known in those regions and the dagger/sword. The sword being also wide at the throat and narrow at the tip...like the pants!

3b. In this case in referring to Nimcha, it is the waistcoat of Persian, Baluch and central Asian form for men... Uzbekistan has the word Nimcha meaning waistcoat...Half Jacket. The waistcoat worn by Baluchi Mercenaries may be a reference to those worn on the Zanj ~ Mercenaries of the Omani Sultans especially Saaid bin Sultan before and after his death in 1856. (ruled 1804 - 1856) In this case Nimcha being the sword worn by the Half Jackets...Nimcha.

4. The great explorers technically at least, may have transmitted the word from Zanzibar/Zanj to Central Africa since they accompanied Tipu Tib the great slave captain and explorers Burton and Speke thus linking into trans Saharan trade routes (Ivory/ Slaves/ Rhino) was likely.

5. Last but not least the whats in a word phenomena is entirely plausible though I admire the potential in the clothing link after all; naming parts or weapons after clothes also occurred with the hilt of the great Moroccan dagger One of the Khoumiya which took its name from A French Policemans Hat!! and there are many more.

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Old 30th September 2016, 05:09 PM   #46
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Lets see who can nail this one first ...Full marks for a complete assessment... additional marks if you put in a bibliography from forum !!! 3 references will suffice !!!
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Old 30th September 2016, 06:08 PM   #47
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You want a "complete assessment"?
A long version or a short one?
OK, here is the long one :

" This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!! "
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Old 30th September 2016, 06:56 PM   #48
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Completely correct Ariel. No Points though; you copied it!...
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Old 2nd October 2016, 05:53 AM   #49
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I AM ENJOYING THIS POST AS IT MAKES A GOOD REFERENCE FOR THIS TYPE OF SWORD. PERHAPS NOT ALL QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED BUT MANY FACTS, OLD ARTICLES AND REFRENCES, THOUGHTS AND EXAMPLES ARE GATHERED HERE FOR EASIER ACCESS. AFTER ALL THAT IS BASICALLY ALL A REFERENCE IS. AS TO THE LAST ITEM THOUGH THERE IS LITTLE REMAINING OF THE SWORD AND ITS GLORY DAYS ARE LONG OVER. FOR A POOR MAN A LITTLE GLUE OR DUCT TAPE AND THIS PARROT THOUGH NO LONGER BEAUTIFUL COULD STILL PECK.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 10:08 AM   #50
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'tis but a scratch,
it's just a flesh wound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG1P8MQS1cU

a little bondo, sanding, polishing, and it's back guarding the bridge. gaffer (duck) tape works well with bondo.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 05:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
I AM ENJOYING THIS POST AS IT MAKES A GOOD REFERENCE FOR THIS TYPE OF SWORD. PERHAPS NOT ALL QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED BUT MANY FACTS, OLD ARTICLES AND REFRENCES, THOUGHTS AND EXAMPLES ARE GATHERED HERE FOR EASIER ACCESS. AFTER ALL THAT IS BASICALLY ALL A REFERENCE IS. AS TO THE LAST ITEM THOUGH THERE IS LITTLE REMAINING OF THE SWORD AND ITS GLORY DAYS ARE LONG OVER. FOR A POOR MAN A LITTLE GLUE OR DUCT TAPE AND THIS PARROT THOUGH NO LONGER BEAUTIFUL COULD STILL PECK.



THANK YOU VANDOO, I am glad you like the thread and the twists and turns not least in the Nimcha name conundrum. Absolutely agreed on all the questions not yet answered which perhaps underlines the detective work still to be completed...however, I hope that this foundation thread and others at Library can assist in uncovering more as we roll forward. Regards Ibrahiim.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 06:06 PM   #52
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Hello all. OK ... its a wreck... I know that and chose it for that reason... Now can anyone nail its origin ? For them as can do it with your eyes shut an extra mark, however, here is an opportunity for those with a little less knowledge to put this one away...
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Old 3rd October 2016, 12:29 AM   #53
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THE BLADE IS LIKE THE BLADE ON THE MOROCCAN NIMCHA PICTURED WITH ITS SCABBARD , IN THE NEXT PICTURE ABOVE THIS POST. THE BROKEN BLADE LENGTH IS GOOD FOR A DAGGER OR BAYONET. THE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GUARD ARE UNKNOWN BUT PERHAPS MIGHT BE FOR ATTACHING AS A BAYONET. THE HORN MAY BE RHINO AND MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR JUST SHOWING DETERIORATION AND DAMAGED. IF IT WAS EVER MODIFIED AS A BAYONET IT HAS COME APART SINCE THEN AND PERHAPS THERE ARE PARTS MISSING. THATS MY BEST GUESS
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Old 3rd October 2016, 01:07 AM   #54
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My guess based on the qillons and the typical "stud" fixing of the tang, is that it is/was a Moroccan Nimcha.
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Old 3rd October 2016, 05:12 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
My guess based on the qillons and the typical "stud" fixing of the tang, is that it is/was a Moroccan Nimcha.
Stu


Yes Stu, thank you...that's the clincher, or one of them ... The stud invariably on the Moroccan pommel top but never on the Zanzibari...The recycled sword now a dagger almost showing how the tang joins the stud.

You can just see the 90 degree turn in the hilt and the Arabesque pattern on the guard backing up the Moroccan provenance. The hilt which is probably Rhino looks like it has been in water...and the termite damage or borer holes have almost totally destroyed it.

What I find interesting about the guard is the two pronged pitons which are sort of halfway to D guard but quilon like in their likely defence style ...again never seen on Zanzibari but on Moroccan; Yes! in a thread by Cathey as I recall.

The blade snapped; in this case apparently European and it would not surprise me to find Genoa bite marks under the oxidation...

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Old 3rd October 2016, 05:20 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
THE BLADE IS LIKE THE BLADE ON THE MOROCCAN NIMCHA PICTURED WITH ITS SCABBARD , IN THE NEXT PICTURE ABOVE THIS POST. THE BROKEN BLADE LENGTH IS GOOD FOR A DAGGER OR BAYONET. THE MODIFICATIONS TO THE GUARD ARE UNKNOWN BUT PERHAPS MIGHT BE FOR ATTACHING AS A BAYONET. THE HORN MAY BE RHINO AND MAY HAVE BEEN MODIFIED OR JUST SHOWING DETERIORATION AND DAMAGED. IF IT WAS EVER MODIFIED AS A BAYONET IT HAS COME APART SINCE THEN AND PERHAPS THERE ARE PARTS MISSING. THATS MY BEST GUESS



Yes indeed it is good to compare or reference the self same thread here where many pointers can be seen about this weapon...Although I cannot see the bayonet quite...except that some potential is there as the grip appears eroded in two notches?...hmmm... I like that idea ...If only they could talk!!! It certainly forms the well practised technique of re using broken blades as daggers. Certainly it appears as Rhino but badly erroded; likely some sort of termite...

Correct on Morocco as the type and as well as arabesque evidence on the quilons it has the stud on top of the pommel to verify that. Thank you Vandoo.

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Old 3rd October 2016, 08:05 PM   #57
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From the Vandoo stable a series of apparent corsair weapons of the mark Nimcha which I have never seen before and in particular beautifully adorned in coral. (Coral is not uncommon in the Indian Ocean but is also often used on the North African coast..

Where to start? ...

Hilt. A Tortoise shell covered Hilt in the tradition of the Algerian form...(I think we rightly group this type alongside the Moroccan?) I place another example of tortoise shell Algerian form horizontally and on its left another example of coral but on a Zanzibari Nimcha.
Hilt further decorated with blueish coloured Enamel or Clossone to the grip. Arabesque platework ( brass or gilded) comprising geometry and split-palmette work around an apparent central eye (missing) surrounded by a floral six segmented design; reflection perhaps to what is on the blade at the throat...a six pointed star. If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? Or is this for a wrist loop?
The hilt probably Rhino further enhanced by Tortoise shell and coral with 5 square shots of silver down one flank and perhaps a similarly Talsimanic number on the other...interspersed with coral-stone dots...some white...mainly red.

Blade ...The six pointed star of Soloman... See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon Both sides of the European blade with crosses and tiny moon strikes in the same throat region..If this is an eye what is the animal it portrays? ... Perhaps The Horse ? Perhaps The Sea Horse? A heavy backblade and 4 fullers reaching down much of the blade. Is this blade a Kilij form...?

Finials on Quilons and Knuckle guard decorated by budded ends with beautiful silver crowns each topped by a tiny coral stone; A clear reflector of the seagoing sword form.

The base ring Silver. Decorated in Floral Arabesque but with the tiny prayer-like niche missing on one side but half present on the other ( See the horizontal example for a complete one on that weapon) Perhaps these niches form 4 prongs of a crown...the base ring.

Knuckle Guard. An interesting ships bow or perhaps a sort of sea monster on the outward face of the Knuckleguard?..The guard in this style not exactly commencing with an elbow 90 degree bend but a tight bend and not the soft S turn of its Indian Ocean sister ..

Pommel; Clad in tiny silver plates almost identical to the Horizontal example ~ the plates reminiscent of minute Moroccan prayer rugs overlapping and decorated in floral motifs. The typical stud pointing identifies it as North African...Moroccan/ Algerian. The Pommel turned at about 90 degrees giving a bigger grip and typically so turned...as are all Nimcha from Moroccan style.

My interpretation based mainly upon this thread using the clues of the single stud on the pommel and the 90 degree turn to the pommel...and decor... illustrates a fine Moroccan / Algerian Rhino and Tortoise hilted Nimcha with Clossone Coral and Silver decoration on a European blade likely to be Italian (Genoa) displaying Star of Soloman and other typical North African astrological devices..

Thanks to Vandoo for the pictures.

Please feel free to comment...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 4th October 2016 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 4th October 2016, 06:23 PM   #58
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For a quick warm up...what ARE THESE ? MASTERCLASS WIZARD STANDARD ONE MINUTE... NORMAL MEMBERS 5 MINUTES.
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Old 5th October 2016, 07:05 AM   #59
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Old 5th October 2016, 07:50 AM   #60
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I THINK OF THE LONG NIMCHA AS SWORDS TO BE USED ON HORSEBACK PRIMARILY BUT OF COURSE THEY CAN BE USED ON FOOT OR ON SHIPS AS WELL. ALL EXAMPLES PICTURED ABOVE FIT THE HORSEMAN'S SWORD TYPE
EXCEPT THE LAST PICTURE. IT IS WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A WEDDING NIMCHA AND IS LARGELY USED AT MARRIAGE CEREMONIES TODAY AND IS DAGGER TO SHORT SWORD IN SIZE. ALL THE ONES I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN FAIRLY RECENT SAY WW1 TO PRESENT BUT OLDER FORMS MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS MOST I HAVE SEEN WERE ATTRIBUTED TO ALGERIA BUT LIKELY TO BE FOUND IN SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

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