30th April 2016, 08:58 AM | #61 | ||
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Quote:
But in the absence of evidence to support "the version that these swords were made for Durbar", conversations were reduced to thinking "posed" thousands of people in the photo or not Some forgotten that those who "posed" no such swords (which we are discussing). |
||
30th April 2016, 09:37 AM | #62 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
I have posted the only other photo I know of Indian spiked armor. (Indian (Rajasthan) back armor, 17th c, plates of steel with cast pointed spikes joined together with steel mail, giving it strength and flexibility. The entire armour consists of nine rows with five spiked plates in each row. It is padded with red velvet. There are four laces, one at each corner, with which it was tied over a zirah (shirt of mail), L: 66, width : 65 cm. The National Museum, New Delhi.) Here is a description of the executioner photo from The Wide World Magazine, Volume 1. 1898 Quote:
|
||
30th April 2016, 09:44 AM | #63 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
Dima, relax. The rare kora of Durbar of Bengal court. Don't upset people.
|
30th April 2016, 10:32 AM | #64 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Quote:
You understood it very well. Others, obviously, either relied too much on Google translator ( charitable interpretation) or had some other agenda in mind. Well, to each his own:-) |
|
30th April 2016, 10:55 AM | #65 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
[QUOTE=Mercenary]
Quote:
And a gentle reminder: 1. Religion of a ruler at a certain period of history does not always reflect religion of a large number of his subjects; 2. Religion of a ruler does not alway reflect the type of weaponry his military uses. To wit: I thought we were talking about Kora as a Bengali weapon, weren't we? Suggest to read Elgood's glossary in his book on Indian arms, re. Bughalee ( p. 238) and Kora ( p.252) Even Mughals might used it. Sharp steel is sharp steel :-; |
|
30th April 2016, 12:28 PM | #66 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Quote:
I understand that it can not be proven? Quote:
At the same time we have seen that in the book - just a personal opinion respected Oliver. And unfortunately, this view is not supported by historical sources .... Quote:
Cultural traditions such swords, too, do not reflect. Or do you think otherwise? |
||||
30th April 2016, 01:21 PM | #67 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
You should be careful to give advice to novice collectors. This may render them a poor service, as has already happened some times. |
||
30th April 2016, 02:00 PM | #68 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
The Siberian Tag Team at work:-)))))
Please, both of you, try to read carefully and think before you fire up your responses. Then, hopefully, you will be able to understand thing better. Example: Elgood's notes are not directed at proving that Bengalis were Muslim. They prove that Kora was a Bengali weapon, too. In general, your comments bore and annoy me. Please ignore my posts as I am trying to ignore yours. OK? |
30th April 2016, 04:08 PM | #69 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
It is a good idea - to offer to ignore the message. Especially when you can not answer the questions that you ask
|
30th April 2016, 05:25 PM | #70 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
LOL!!!
You guys are amazing!! Why ignore each other? This thread IS a durbar!!!!! A festival of hilarity in these barbs and inuendos filled with theatrical and entertaining performances, and bringing in a scope of topics, subject matter of amazing dimension, presented in wonderfully creative scenes. As this gala thread unfolds , it is amazing to have revealing and informative courses in English, geopolitical history, cultural studies, theosophy and even photographic history and theory among others I may have overlooked. Mahratt, may I say your English is vastly improving as you bring in new words as well as edification on others such as 'kitsch' and even your astute understanding of the 'word play' on 'posing' etc. As always, Estcrh you are remarkable in posting these sources and added images!!!! Fascinating notes on this type of armor, I thought Ian was using the term 'elephant' as metaphorical referring to the size of this guy In any case, there are of course cases of various armor used in India (Rajputs?) which were referred to as 'coat of nails'. I doubt that they had these huge spikes, but who knows.......after all, this IS from a DURBAR Sometime in the past, around the early part of this thread I mentioned koras of this form (I think that was the thread topic if memory serves)..were used in ritual (sacrifice of doves). I will rely on the edification of the word smiths here to determine if that might be considered 'ceremonial'. Is the form Bengali? Some examples are, but the kora is 'believed; to be effectively Nepalese. Now, I am unsure whether there were border check points to ensure that these forms were not diffused into either region. |
1st May 2016, 12:10 AM | #71 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
1st May 2016, 12:38 AM | #72 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
|
estrch:
I was referring to an earlier comment by Oliver Pinchot about the elephant armor. Incidentally, The Wide World Magazine is probably not the best source of factual and reliable information. A British monthly publication from 1898-1965, it was the perpetrator of a major hoax through the serial publication of "The Adventures of Louis de Rougement" who was supposed to have spent many years in outback Australia. When the magazine shut down, The Times of London described it as running mostly stories about "brave chaps with large moustaches on stiff upper lips, who did stupid and dangerous things." Not exactly National Geographic. Ian |
1st May 2016, 12:57 AM | #73 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Estrch,
Every time I see this pic I am always wondering: why should an executioner need a helmet, a shield and a heavily-spiked coat? Was he supposed to duel with the convicted person, and how was he supposed to strike with his humongous tegha without impaling his own arm? I am sure it is a staged portrait to terrify British accountants and rosy-cheeked milkmaids:-) " By Jove! 'ad it not been for 'is Majesty, these savages would 'ave eaten each other alive! Mistuh 'ennessy, I'll 'ave bangers and a pint of bittuh. Double quick." |
1st May 2016, 01:25 AM | #74 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
Armor was worn by some participants of durbars and other state events, I do not think it was necessary for protection in this case either, but the armor was real, just from a different (earlier) time period. Bikaner soldiers wearing armor for the Prince of Wales visit to India in 1875-76. These mail and plate shirts are from a large group of armor that was stored in the Bikaner armory in Rajastan, northern India. Maharaja Anup Singh (reigned 1669–98) was a general in the armies of the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb and led a series of campaigns in the Deccan in the 1680s and 1690s, including battles at Golconda in 1687 and Adoni in 1689. Dates on similar armors indicate that they taken as war trophys during one of the Deccan campaigns. In recent years some of these armors were sold off to dealers and have ended up in private and public collections. Last edited by estcrh; 1st May 2016 at 01:46 AM. |
|
1st May 2016, 01:30 AM | #75 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
1st May 2016, 02:49 AM | #76 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Estrch,
Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume. Just like the Kora. If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials. But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-) |
1st May 2016, 07:05 AM | #77 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by estcrh; 1st May 2016 at 03:16 PM. |
||
1st May 2016, 09:18 AM | #78 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
you notice in the picture we see the real weapons and armor. But we do not see the grotesque objects similar discussion to the sword (Kora) |
|
1st May 2016, 02:03 PM | #79 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Quote:
My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails". Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime. You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-)))) |
|
1st May 2016, 02:54 PM | #80 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
1st May 2016, 06:32 PM | #81 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things.
It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here??? I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here. FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer . There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar. Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world. Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread. "Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous." "Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger. I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion. |
1st May 2016, 07:10 PM | #82 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
David, thank you for a reasonable words.
|
1st May 2016, 07:40 PM | #83 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
David,
I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative. The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities. Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements: "The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held." If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched. Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs. Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially. The hooker is, we shall never know for certain....... |
1st May 2016, 07:42 PM | #84 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Posts: 257
|
The workmanship on the OP’s kora is typical of Indian decorative “weapons” sold over a period of many years. An illustrative group is from the section headed “Military Decorations” in the 1927 Francis Bannerman catalog.
A “Goorka knife” from the same source exhibits characteristic decoration and fanciful description. Blades are invariably made from flat stock with minimal taper. Compare the OPs "kora" with a genuine Indian sacrificial kora on Artzi's site:LINK |
1st May 2016, 08:38 PM | #85 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
Berkley, thank you ! Those are exactly the kukris I was thinking of which are so much like this kora. The BANNERMAN catalog!!! This seller of the early 20th century is an incredible source of so many collectable weapons of shall we say, more affordable stature, which permeated collections by the 50s and 60s. These were the early glory days of collecting where the arms we now can often only dream of owning were around in huge numbers, and very affordable.
This actually quite nicely puts this thread well back on track! While we have had many fascinating and intriguing entries which digressed into many areas, they have been most informative, and again I thank Estcrh for this wealth of illustrations and data! The nature of the kora originally posted here has been the point of contention, and while it remains unclear whether it was a 'souvenier' of a durbar or simply one hawked in bazaars at another time cannot be conclusively known. It is important to realize that in assessing or categorizing weapons being studied or collected, often the term 'of the type' is used. The term 'ceremonial' here has implied that a kora 'of this form and decoration might have been carried by a participant in the durbars. While that may be plausible, it cannot be proven. As Ariel has noted, and in citing Oliver's notes, there was certainly a distinct 'range' of quality in weapons used and otherwise available in these gala events. The quality of this particular example would be the best indicator of its place in that range, and how it may have been placed in the scope of a durbar.......if in fact related at all. Ceremonial also describes the character of SIMILAR examples without this decoration and usually of sound quality used in sacrificial rituals in Bengal. That description simply refers to the TYPE of sword, and not necessarily applicable to THIS sword in that sense. This is clearly not such a sword but something more embellished. |
1st May 2016, 08:50 PM | #86 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,115
|
Quote:
No one has shown here that any pageants or ceremonies took place at a Durbar where a kora of this quality would have been used. Not in photographs or in written word about such Durbars. Your claim that the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is nothing more than double-speak in this context. IMO This type of informal fallacy doesn't really have much practical purpose in our field of study and discussion. Yes, i am quite familiar with the philosophical concept. For those who aren't you can read about it here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance However, in a case were a member comes to us seeking comments on a sword, while we are free to speculate, i believe we are obligated not to confuse the bejeezus out of him with completely unprovable flights of fancy. Yes, we probably can never know for sure that this sword was not sold in a market at a Durbar, which, i suppose, would add something to its historical value. At the same time we certainly cannot say that it was, nor should we be giving its new owner the impression that this completely unprovable possibility can ever rightfully be presented in a description of this sword, especially when so many other possibilities exist. |
|
2nd May 2016, 01:26 AM | #87 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
David,
I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well... As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later. You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-))) That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there. With best wishes, Ariel |
2nd May 2016, 03:55 AM | #88 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
|
It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.
|
2nd May 2016, 05:22 AM | #89 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!!
Berkeley, beautifully done!!! You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!! |
|
|