Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

TVV · 10th January 2005, 04:55 PM

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2005, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 12th January 2005, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

Another outstanding post, Jim. Good grief, man! You've been on a tear lately!

Radu Transylvanicus · 12th January 2005, 09:53 AM

...(just watching an awesome development of this thread) ...
however : QUOTE Jim : ,,"...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans"
... ahem , ahem ... easy there, tiger !

TVV · 12th January 2005, 05:22 PM

Radu: the control over the lands north of the Danube river in the period between 100 and 1300 AD is a fascinating topic, but if we are to tackle it, it would be perhaps only wise to do so from the perspective of this thread. It is certain that at one point there was a mixture of weapon styles in use in these lands, as one Byzantine chronicle (I am at work now, I will try to dig up the name of its author and its year later) states that the Pechenegs, after defeating Svetoslav's Varyags on their return from his second incursion in the Balkans, took their swrods and other weapons, which they valued much. So there were Pechenegs with Viking swords at one time (there are some distinctively Viking swords and scabbard chapes excavated in Bulgaria only to further illustrate the point).
Jim: the Cumans came to Bulgaria much earlier. Their troops were instrumental in the rebellion that led to the reestablishment of the Bulgarian State in the late 12th century, and also in the battle at Adrianopol in 1205, in which the Bulgarian Tzar Kaloyan (ok, ok, Radu, Tzar of Bulgarians and Wallachians by official title, but the Byzantine historians and the Pope referred to him as the ruler of Bulgaria) defeated the Crusaders who had just conquered Constantinople. Kaloyan himself was married to a Cuman woman, and later in the history of the Second Bulgarian Empire there were two Cuman dynasties (Terters and Shishmans). There is a legend from that period, which states that the Cumans were "the third part of the Bulgars". All this makes me believe that they were an ethnicity extremely similar to the Bulgars who initially came to the Balkans, before they mingled with the Slavs. Their presence on the Balkans was quite significant and prolonged. I think Rivkin mentioned in another thread that many of the Mameluks were of Cuman origin.
However, for the purpose of our topic, I do not know of any sabres from that period attributed to the Cumans, which is quite surprising, as their military consisted entirely of cavalry and the sabre would have suited their style of warfare perfectly. Perhaps I will need to ask friends of mine back in Bulgaria who are archeologists if they know something more. It is possible that some of their weapons are incorrectly attributed to the Mongols. In the capitol city of the Second Bulgarian Empire there have been excavated blacksmithing furnaces, and the metallurgy was well developped by German immigrants from the Rhine region, who produced swords of western style. It could be that the Cumans were simply assimilated in the Bulgarian state and that they adopted the locally produced straight bladed weapons. Of course, this is only a complete speculation on my part.

P.S. I promise to scan and post some pictures later on today. Jim, could you also post the sabre that is attributed to the Cumans?

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2005, 01:53 AM

Hi Andrew,
Thank you for the kind note!

Yes I have been on a tear! The piles of books in here are getting dangerous, but I get a bit berserk when a good discussion starts a quest.

Radu,
Thanks for the observation, I felt pretty safe noting Nicolle's statement with the quotation marks

I know this is your turf, so always appreciate any observations that might correct any errors or broad assumptions. The topic you've brought up on this thread is a good one, and the development of swords in these regions is key to understanding many ethnographic sabre forms.

TVV,
The Cuman sabre (noted as Hungarian in the drawing in the book as noted in reference) is not very cooperative in being scanned ( this thing never works right anyway

). These line drawings are not the best representation of these weapons, but simply give a reasonable impression (much like the police artist for identifying suspects).
The complexities of discussing the tribal movements through these regions and the semantics in thier names alone is most confusing, but as we seem to agree, most important in trying to establish the swords of choice among them. I think you are right in presuming assimilation of Cumans into Bulgarian state, but unclear on which time period we mean. This is another confounding factor in studying these tribal peoples, the constant diffusion and assimilation into other groups. In some references it is implied that the Avars 'simply disappeared' , in one reference the expression "gone like the Avars" was used. Like many tribal groups, many assimilated into other larger groups rather than 'disappearing'.

Really enjoying this discussion guys!!! Thank you!!!

All the best,
Jim

tom hyle · 15th January 2005, 04:59 PM

This one just grew and grew, but I've finally read it all. Very interesting, all. A few notes:

Falchions often have curved spines, and are commonly thought to be derived from scramasax/longsax. Germans are more Eastern than Celts, and always have been though; Slavs more Eastern yet. This seems pretty directly sensical.

Estocs ARE lance-swords; basically shortish spears constructed as swords, often or even usually incapable of cutting. This is my view on smallsword, etc. as well. Rapier per se is debatable, being a very capable cutting weapon in its early forms.

Do you really think the "grip strap" of modern sabres evolved as an extension of the pommel? Do you have transitional examples? Don't you think it's a version of a tang-band?

To me it seems that the distinctly Western European evolution of the sabre is to bring the point back in line with the hilt, rather than trailing it behind, as on Tartaric ("true"?) sabres, and in effect combining sabre and estoc in a single weapon, or attempting so to do.

10th January 2005, 04:55 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site. In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

12th January 2005, 09:53 AM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	...(just watching an awesome development of this thread) ... however : QUOTE Jim : ,,"...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans" ... ahem , ahem ... easy there, tiger !

12th January 2005, 05:22 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	Radu: the control over the lands north of the Danube river in the period between 100 and 1300 AD is a fascinating topic, but if we are to tackle it, it would be perhaps only wise to do so from the perspective of this thread. It is certain that at one point there was a mixture of weapon styles in use in these lands, as one Byzantine chronicle (I am at work now, I will try to dig up the name of its author and its year later) states that the Pechenegs, after defeating Svetoslav's Varyags on their return from his second incursion in the Balkans, took their swrods and other weapons, which they valued much. So there were Pechenegs with Viking swords at one time (there are some distinctively Viking swords and scabbard chapes excavated in Bulgaria only to further illustrate the point). Jim: the Cumans came to Bulgaria much earlier. Their troops were instrumental in the rebellion that led to the reestablishment of the Bulgarian State in the late 12th century, and also in the battle at Adrianopol in 1205, in which the Bulgarian Tzar Kaloyan (ok, ok, Radu, Tzar of Bulgarians and Wallachians by official title, but the Byzantine historians and the Pope referred to him as the ruler of Bulgaria) defeated the Crusaders who had just conquered Constantinople. Kaloyan himself was married to a Cuman woman, and later in the history of the Second Bulgarian Empire there were two Cuman dynasties (Terters and Shishmans). There is a legend from that period, which states that the Cumans were "the third part of the Bulgars". All this makes me believe that they were an ethnicity extremely similar to the Bulgars who initially came to the Balkans, before they mingled with the Slavs. Their presence on the Balkans was quite significant and prolonged. I think Rivkin mentioned in another thread that many of the Mameluks were of Cuman origin. However, for the purpose of our topic, I do not know of any sabres from that period attributed to the Cumans, which is quite surprising, as their military consisted entirely of cavalry and the sabre would have suited their style of warfare perfectly. Perhaps I will need to ask friends of mine back in Bulgaria who are archeologists if they know something more. It is possible that some of their weapons are incorrectly attributed to the Mongols. In the capitol city of the Second Bulgarian Empire there have been excavated blacksmithing furnaces, and the metallurgy was well developped by German immigrants from the Rhine region, who produced swords of western style. It could be that the Cumans were simply assimilated in the Bulgarian state and that they adopted the locally produced straight bladed weapons. Of course, this is only a complete speculation on my part. P.S. I promise to scan and post some pictures later on today. Jim, could you also post the sabre that is attributed to the Cumans?

15th January 2005, 01:53 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hi Andrew, Thank you for the kind note! Yes I have been on a tear! The piles of books in here are getting dangerous, but I get a bit berserk when a good discussion starts a quest. Radu, Thanks for the observation, I felt pretty safe noting Nicolle's statement with the quotation marks I know this is your turf, so always appreciate any observations that might correct any errors or broad assumptions. The topic you've brought up on this thread is a good one, and the development of swords in these regions is key to understanding many ethnographic sabre forms. TVV, The Cuman sabre (noted as Hungarian in the drawing in the book as noted in reference) is not very cooperative in being scanned ( this thing never works right anyway ). These line drawings are not the best representation of these weapons, but simply give a reasonable impression (much like the police artist for identifying suspects). The complexities of discussing the tribal movements through these regions and the semantics in thier names alone is most confusing, but as we seem to agree, most important in trying to establish the swords of choice among them. I think you are right in presuming assimilation of Cumans into Bulgarian state, but unclear on which time period we mean. This is another confounding factor in studying these tribal peoples, the constant diffusion and assimilation into other groups. In some references it is implied that the Avars 'simply disappeared' , in one reference the expression "gone like the Avars" was used. Like many tribal groups, many assimilated into other larger groups rather than 'disappearing'. Really enjoying this discussion guys!!! Thank you!!! All the best, Jim

15th January 2005, 04:59 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	This one just grew and grew, but I've finally read it all. Very interesting, all. A few notes: Falchions often have curved spines, and are commonly thought to be derived from scramasax/longsax. Germans are more Eastern than Celts, and always have been though; Slavs more Eastern yet. This seems pretty directly sensical. Estocs ARE lance-swords; basically shortish spears constructed as swords, often or even usually incapable of cutting. This is my view on smallsword, etc. as well. Rapier per se is debatable, being a very capable cutting weapon in its early forms. Do you really think the "grip strap" of modern sabres evolved as an extension of the pommel? Do you have transitional examples? Don't you think it's a version of a tang-band? To me it seems that the distinctly Western European evolution of the sabre is to bring the point back in line with the hilt, rather than trailing it behind, as on Tartaric ("true"?) sabres, and in effect combining sabre and estoc in a single weapon, or attempting so to do.