Hunting Sword no1

[Jim McDougall]

Norman, you are really following through with impressive detective work on this, as always, and thank you for keeping us up to speed with findings. I think the assertion regarding the London Cutlers Co. is likely well founded as it seems the general research corresponding in other items presented by this firm appears reliable. I would suspect that checking in 'Southwick' would reveal more detail.

These court swords as well as the British dragoon sword (c.1760s) with same configuration blade and stamped marks of the fleur de lis do seem to have blades of common source. I am inclined to think these are Solingen blades imported and stamped in this period but it is puzzling to think that the London Cutlers would have used German blades. The fleur de lis, while also surprising to me to be a British mark, after looking further seem quite well placed after all.

According to Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons") notes the prevalent use of fleur de lis in the motif on swords along with Tudor roses, cherubs and royal heads in the end of 17th into 18th. Clearly the fleur de lis was present in the upper right quadrant of the Royal Arms until 1801, and the numbers of French artisans in English commercial areas was significant.

The Cutlers Company dates back to the 15th century, and there seem of course various chronological changes in organization and markings etc. but again I am puzzled by the use of what appears a German blade stamped with a mark said to be of this company.
In a Bosley's catalog of June 4, 2008 (#924) there is a brass mounted court/hunting sword described as "Continental, 18th century". There is no image but the blade is 21.5 " long and said to have fleur de lis stamp on either side of the blade.
Since England did not export blades to the Continent, then why would a mark of the London Cutlers Co. be on a sword there?

One of the primary reasons that Solingen swordsmiths ended up in England in the early to mid 17th century was to provide England itself with the benefit of these quality blades with importing them from Germany. The German swordsmiths came into Hounslow, then after that operation ceased came the Shotley Bridge enterprise which too became defunct in the early years of the 18th century. The opposition to the import of German blades remained prevalent, though as the numbers of English makers grew, there were still agents bringing in German blades into the 19th century .

Did the London Cutlers Co. actually produce blades is my question. If so, perhaps they were copying German pattern blades, where these would be readily explained.

Anybody out there have Southwick?????

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Many thanks as usual for your keen interest and interesting comments. This fleur de lys mark appears to be evident on quite a few differing styles of weapons and on that note do you, or anyone else, have a copy of the American Sword 1775-1945 by Petersen. On page 48 item no 45 is a cutlass which according to the text has a fleur de lys blade mark. I would be grateful if anyone has a copy of this book could they please have a look at this cutlass and if this mark is visible in the hard copy could they post an image of it here, the copy I looked at on the net was very unclear with regard to detail. Once again Jim thanks for your interest, perhaps you could have a look at No2 and give me your impressions.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. This one has a few edge nicks which obviously begs the question, 'was this used only for hunting or ?'. A question which is guaranteed to remain unresolved.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
In looking at Petersen as indicated, item #45 does appear to have this same type blade, but the image is so dark that I cannot make out the mark It does seem to be located in somewhat the same location on the blade and the single back fuller seems present .
In the text it is noted this cutlass was produced by Richard Gridley who produced these and other military stores c.1776-1777 in his 'furnace' in Sharon, Massachusetts.

As these colonies at that time had been receiving British goods for some time obviously, it seems likely he might have had some of these blades at hand and produced swords using them.

It is often confusing with the term 'hunting' swords with these 18th c. swords and as seen with many references, the hunt was a very gentry oriented affair. Much in these events was of course fashion oriented and it is often difficult to differentiate in court or hunting swords as both were in effect concurrently interchanged in many cases.

As an aside on this piece, in my opinion the dark and vertically fluted grip seems a particularly French affectation, but naturally it is simply a subjective observation based on many French swords using this design.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been going through Aylward ("The Smallsword in England", 1945) in order to find any references to the London Cutlers Co. While most references attend to the rather ancient history of this organization which began in 1365 (p.32) noting that every cutler must record his mark, it seems that in the period discussed there was far less structure. On the same page Aylward notes that by 1680 there were very few cutlers belonging to the company and the Company lacked the power to check importing of blades.
On p.34, it is noted that a manuscript book of cutlers marks of 17th century was made, but incomplete, and the last attempt to control sword blade trade was in 1719, thus through the 18th century no accurate data was apparently kept. Still the Company existed as a nominal entity, and there is discussion of a mark of a flaming sword used as late as 1780 by varying cutlers (p.18-19).

Most telling is on p.19 where Aylward notes, "...in the 18th century the bladesmiths art was at a low ebb, and the demand for fine blades was met by bulk importations from Solingen". Further, "...these bulk importations of blades too, might be one of the reasons for the absence of signatures on blades mounted by 18th century sword cutlers" . Apparantly the craft of sword cutler' was a multiple faceted trade as they also acted as hatters, and general outfitters.
In these capacities these men acted essentially as 'hilters' using imported blades, and in the latter 17th into 18th century they situated around particular business districts where at certain coffee houses etc. they woud bid on parcels of imported blades. On p.35 it is noted that by 1767 there were only three bladesmiths in Birmingham, then the seat of the English blade trade, and there had been certain prejudices against English made blades well through the 18th century, with German producers holding an unchallenged monopoly .

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971,p.42) stating that by 1760-90 the universal practice for the sword cutler ( calling him the 'hilter' in actuality) to order the 'white' blade from recognized centers (Solingen) and basically assemble the swords.

It would seem that there is no record of a fleur de lis being specific to the London Cutlers Co. as makers of sword blades. As noted, it appears that blades were indeed imported from Germany, and these blades with this mark of the fleur de lis appear not only in England, but on the Continent, with the examples in America having come from British sources. As Solingen often added particular names, slogans and markings on their blades for consignments to certain markets, perhaps these were among such and over a period c.1720s into 1750s.
I checked through Bezdek and found no indication of the fleur de lis for any maker listed. As noted no particular makers marks using fleur de lis are mentioned in the text of Aylward for the Cutlers Co nor any particular maker in England, and he is usually keen on such detail.

I would suggest that perhaps this fleur de lis is a kind of 'brand' for these blades destined for English clients in the manner of the 'Andrea Ferara' blades to Scotland and 'Sahagun' blades to North Europe. The fleur de lis was a popular device in England among several others, though it may seem curious. Actually there was a Fleur de Lis street in these business districts in England where cutlers conducted business, so it is tempting to consider association along that venue. These areas were also well populated with French artisans and businessmen, so that furthers possibilities for a key import circumstance.

This may be the explanation for this device found commonly on these blades from this period .

[Dmitry]

Yes, the blade is English-made, mid-1700s, so is the sword. Why wouldn't it be?
Fleur-de-lis stamp of this style was used on British martial blades in that time frame, infantry hangers and sergeants swords, and on some cuttoe-type hangers, which imho were used by the English infantry. During that period arms were purchased by the colonels and distributed to their troops, hence the multitude of types. I don't see why the hunting style hangers couldn't have been used by grenadier detachments and skirmishers, while the regular troops were issued bayonets.