A Most Curious Indian Tulwar with a Latin Cartouche/Crest

CharlesS · 24th March 2014, 07:39 PM

This Indian tulwar is Indian through and through...the hilt style in a bird motif, the crystalline wootz blade, etc.....with two notable exceptions: 1. The wootz blade shows a very European style crest with the Latin words: "Templa-Quam-Delecta" ....which I have translated as more or less, "The Temple's Selected"...again, more or less...perhaps someone can provide us with a more precise translation.I am most curious to know if anyone is familiar with this crest, and to whom it belongs.

2. Also note that the floral motifs decorating the fittings are not typically Indian floral patterns, but appear to be 3-leaf clovers. These motifs cover both the gilded hilt and the gilded scabbard mounts. I have not seen this in Indian motifs before.

Regarding the wootz blade the wootz is of rather average quality with some forging flaws and probably from an average and impure ingot, certainly not the best of Indian wootz, but not horrible either.

The scabbard is original, but the dry rotted velvet covering has been replaced with the identical cotton velvet color originally on the scabbard.

Dimensions: Overall: 37.5in. Blade length: 31in.

Would love any input on this one....thanks in advance!!!

Norman McCormick · 24th March 2014, 08:44 PM

Hi Charles,
Richard Plantagenet Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, Governor of Madras 1875-1880 amongst other things, pic of his Coat of Arms. See also Stowe House/School and Viscount Cobham. Motto translates as 'How lovely are thy Temples'.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 24th March 2014, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

...a very European style crest with the Latin words: "Templa-Quam-Delecta" ....

DILECTA ... not DELECTA; it makes all the difference

.
Browse the Web for the motto and you will be surprised with the multiple results. Surely a British aristrocat having commissioned or being presented a talwar

fernando · 24th March 2014, 08:53 PM

Ah ... too late ... and unsufficient

Norman McCormick · 24th March 2014, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... too late ... and unsufficient

Hi Fernando,
Never too late and always more than sufficient.

My Regards as Always,
Norman.

CharlesS · 24th March 2014, 09:05 PM

Thanks so much Norman and Fernando...wow!...that was fast!

I looked up the Latin translation on the web and got a number of translations...most didn't seem to make sense. The one I used in the starter thread was the most sensible to me.

Jim McDougall · 24th March 2014, 10:02 PM

Wow!!! Outstanding example from the British Raj, and Norman, fantastic and quick response!!

spiral · 24th March 2014, 10:42 PM

Ahhh it surfaces again! Enjoy!

I was amazed when Artzi sold it without spending a few minutes researching its provenance...

Its one of the famous lost treasures of Stowe...

linky for the lost...

Spiral

napoleon · 25th March 2014, 11:29 AM

what a choice weapon,fantastic provenance,lost treasures of stowe thanks for the link,and thanks for sharing a real gem

CharlesS · 25th March 2014, 05:01 PM

Spiral,

Thanks so much for your input, link, and info. You have turned what appeared to be an average vestige of the British Raj into a real piece of fascinating history.

Thanks again for such enlightening info!

spiral · 25th March 2014, 11:04 PM

Thank you.... I am always happy to share what bits of knowledge I have, sadly perhaps more often than not its not the best news for many...

I like sharing it much more when its good news though!

Enjoy!

Its a good provenance....

Spiral

ALEX · 31st March 2014, 03:20 PM

Here is another Mughal sword with Latin crest. It is not of same provenance, but I think of the same British Raj concept. What's interesting here is that the blade has similar cartouches on both sides, and there is another, older Islamic cartouche barely visible under the new one on the right side. Thank you for any ideas of origin and potential background!

spiral · 31st March 2014, 05:55 PM

Is the Latin readable? That's the place to start for the family associated ... then one gets date/rank... from the type of crown used to narrow it down..

Although of the top of my head must say the crown doesn't initially appear British to my eye.

Perhaps a Ranking Indian family that copied the Brit, style latin etc,?

Quite common for maharajah types to use Latin & have fairly European based coats of arms as well...

Spiral

24th March 2014, 07:39 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	A Most Curious Indian Tulwar with a Latin Cartouche/Crest This Indian tulwar is Indian through and through...the hilt style in a bird motif, the crystalline wootz blade, etc.....with two notable exceptions: 1. The wootz blade shows a very European style crest with the Latin words: "Templa-Quam-Delecta" ....which I have translated as more or less, "The Temple's Selected"...again, more or less...perhaps someone can provide us with a more precise translation.I am most curious to know if anyone is familiar with this crest, and to whom it belongs. 2. Also note that the floral motifs decorating the fittings are not typically Indian floral patterns, but appear to be 3-leaf clovers. These motifs cover both the gilded hilt and the gilded scabbard mounts. I have not seen this in Indian motifs before. Regarding the wootz blade the wootz is of rather average quality with some forging flaws and probably from an average and impure ingot, certainly not the best of Indian wootz, but not horrible either. The scabbard is original, but the dry rotted velvet covering has been replaced with the identical cotton velvet color originally on the scabbard. Dimensions: Overall: 37.5in. Blade length: 31in. Would love any input on this one....thanks in advance!!! Attached Images

24th March 2014, 08:44 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,643	Hi Charles, Richard Plantagenet Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, Governor of Madras 1875-1880 amongst other things, pic of his Coat of Arms. See also Stowe House/School and Viscount Cobham. Motto translates as 'How lovely are thy Temples'. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 24th March 2014 at 11:40 PM.

31st March 2014, 03:20 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Here is another Mughal sword with Latin crest. It is not of same provenance, but I think of the same British Raj concept. What's interesting here is that the blade has similar cartouches on both sides, and there is another, older Islamic cartouche barely visible under the new one on the right side. Thank you for any ideas of origin and potential background! Attached Images

31st March 2014, 05:55 PM	#13
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Is the Latin readable? That's the place to start for the family associated ... then one gets date/rank... from the type of crown used to narrow it down.. Although of the top of my head must say the crown doesn't initially appear British to my eye. Perhaps a Ranking Indian family that copied the Brit, style latin etc,? Quite common for maharajah types to use Latin & have fairly European based coats of arms as well... Spiral Last edited by spiral; 31st March 2014 at 10:39 PM.

24th March 2014, 08:53 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ah ... too late ... and unsufficient

24th March 2014, 09:05 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks so much Norman and Fernando...wow!...that was fast! I looked up the Latin translation on the web and got a number of translations...most didn't seem to make sense. The one I used in the starter thread was the most sensible to me.

24th March 2014, 10:02 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Wow!!! Outstanding example from the British Raj, and Norman, fantastic and quick response!!

24th March 2014, 10:42 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ahhh it surfaces again! Enjoy! I was amazed when Artzi sold it without spending a few minutes researching its provenance... Its one of the famous lost treasures of Stowe... linky for the lost... Spiral

25th March 2014, 11:29 AM	#9
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	what a choice weapon,fantastic provenance,lost treasures of stowe thanks for the link,and thanks for sharing a real gem

25th March 2014, 05:01 PM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Spiral, Thanks so much for your input, link, and info. You have turned what appeared to be an average vestige of the British Raj into a real piece of fascinating history. Thanks again for such enlightening info!

25th March 2014, 11:04 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you.... I am always happy to share what bits of knowledge I have, sadly perhaps more often than not its not the best news for many... I like sharing it much more when its good news though! Enjoy! Its a good provenance.... Spiral