Unusual Visayan features?

Dimasalang · 19th September 2012, 07:36 PM

I'd like to add one more thing here:
That sword is AWESOME!

That is all.

migueldiaz · 20th September 2012, 07:05 AM

Saw this thread just now.

Wow, nice one Michael! Skål!

I have yet to figure out whether there's a special name for these 'bat'-pommeled Visayan swords. And I'm also still finding out whether parts of Luzon adjacent to the Visayas also used this sword (because some of these swords are not chisel-ground as we all know, like my example below).

My only input is that the pattern of the cord binding on the hilt is similar to the carving on my similar sword. Thus it sure looks that Michael's example is the older one. And my example would then be a latter less ornate version, and in which hilt the style of the cord binding was mimicked.

Very nice example indeed!

PS - As for the interpretation of the carving on the scabbard, I'm preparing another thread (Southeast Asian sword symbolism), based on what I gathered in those European museums I've been to recently. Hope it'll shed some light on the matter. Thanks.

VVV · 20th September 2012, 03:14 PM

Thanks Lorenz,

Nice to see your sword and the similar pattern on the handle.
I look forward to read your coming thread with some of the results from your study tour.

Skål to you too

Michael

migueldiaz · 21st September 2012, 05:16 AM

Thanks too, Michael.

And yes, will surely post that new thread very soon ... the only problem is, the A Very Old Kris thread is distracting me!

Bangkaya · 10th October 2012, 04:36 AM

Hello,
This is an Akeanon talibung with a linamay type blade, not an Ilonggo tenegre. The type of bakunawa pommel with the shorter nose and longer "eye stems" and "ears" sets it apart from other Akeanon talibungs with the typical elongated nose or folded nose variety. Generally, these more "bat-like" features are found from the panday clans that more coastal such as in Makato, Ibajay, and Tangalan. The long nose or folded nose variety are more of a highland variety usually associated with the sword making traditions of Malinao, Libacao and Balete. It is interesting to not that the the original poster's talibung has a symmetrical round guard, whereas most of these "bat-like" bakunawa hilt talibungs (such as Spunger's) have asymmetrical guards more similar to the sanduko of Capiz.

As for the beetle wing decoration, it is said that this particular beetle has certain anting-anting qualities. Yet it is also said that the number of beetle wings also marks the number of times the talibung has been used.

Regards,
Bangkaya

VVV · 10th October 2012, 10:25 AM

Thanks Bangkaya,

I am still happy if I can trace a sword to a specific island, like Panay, but obviously you know how to differ them between regions and village.
When you find time it would be very interesting if you could, maybe on a separate thread, share your knowledge on which features that indicate which sub-region on the more usual Visayan swords?

Michael

migueldiaz · 10th October 2012, 04:35 PM

Thanks too, Bangkaya. And welcome to the forum!

On a similar note, would any of the terms below pertain also to the swords under discussion? To err on the side of caution, I'm copying-and-pasting what I posted earlier in another thread. Thanks in advance and the info you've just provided above is truly appreciated.

The terms are coming from a 1930's Ilonggo-English dictionary by Kaufmann:

sandúkò: A kind of long bolo with a curved point. (cf. ginúnting).

garanás: Knife, especially one used for cutting meshes, repairing nets, etc. (cf. urutúp, galanás, súndang, kotsílyo, lansítas).

ginúnting: A kind of war-knife, large bolo. (cf. siántong, sandúkò, binángon, íwà).

siántong: A kind of bolo, but straight and longer than the ordinary binángon and having the point slightly curved. (cf. sandúkò).

súndang: Knife, kitchen-knife, a small stiff knife, dagger, sword, table-knife. (cf. tulóslok—fork; irós—spoon; garanás, urutóp, lansítas, kotsílyo, binángon, íwa, etc.).

talibóng: A large, heavy bolo. (cf. sandúkò, siántong, binángon).

urutúp: (B) A knife, anything with a sharp edge for cutting, as a piece of sharp stone, bone, tin, wood, bamboo, etc. (cf. súndang, garanás; ótop).

túmbak: A harpoon, barbed spear or javelin, prong, fork. (cf.bángkaw—lance).

bángkaw: A lance, spear. Ang kílid sang Aton Ginóo hinandusán sang bángkaw ni Longíno. The side of Our Lord was pierced by the lance of Longinus.

kinabasî, kinabásì: Like—, in the form of—, a kabásì-fish; sharppointed. Bángkaw nga kinabasî. A lance with a straight, sharp point. (cf.kabásì, pinángdan).

pinángdan: Like a—, in the form of a—, screw-pine; twisted like a screw-pine. Bángkaw nga pinángdan. A lance with a long drawn and twisted point.

kinúgon: Made as pointed or as sharp as cogon-grass; the point of a spear,lance, arrow, etc. (cf. kógon).

lántip: The double-edged point of a lance, spear, or the like.

binángon: The Philippine long knife carried in a scabbard on the hip by workmen. The scabbard or case is called "tagúb" (cf. bólo, pinútì, siántong, sandúkò, ginúnting, talibóng, kális, súndang, uták).

lansétas: (Sp. lanceta) Lancet, fleam, a farrier's sharp knife used in phlebotomy; a pocket-knife.

pinútì: Knife, bolo, any cutting tool made of steel. (cf. putî).

related terms:

baláraw: Dagger, poniard, stiletto, knife. (cf. dága, punyál).

dága: (Sp. daga) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, súndang, pinútì).

kotsílyo: (Sp. cochillo) Knife, table-knife. (cf. súndang).

punyál: (Sp. puñal) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, dága, súndang, etc.).

íwà: Dagger; poniard, dirk, knife. (cf. dága, binángon, talibóng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kotsílyo, súndang, garanás, urutúp, lansétas).

uták: Knife, bolo. See binángon.

espáda: (Sp. espada) Sword, sabre, falchion, scimitar, brand, rapier, side-arm. (cf. binángon, talibúng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kális).

kális: (Sp. cris) The Malayan dagger, creese or cris, a sword as used by the Moros.

sáble: (Sp. sable) Sabre, sword. (cf. súndang, binángon, talibóng, etc.).

kampílan: A large, long kind of sword; hanger, cutlass.

lánsa: (Sp. lanza) Lance. (cf. bángkaw).

bidyíw: A spear, harpoon. (cf. bángkaw—lance).

sibát: A spear, a kind of barbed lance. Palayógi siá sang sibát. Throw the spear at him. Sibatá ang talunón. Throw a spear at the wild boar. Spear the wild boar.

sumbilíng: (H) Any missile in the nature of a javelin, spear, lance or the like.

orongán: The (wooden) shaft of a lance, spear, etc. (cf. unungán, ulungán).

kalásag: Shield, cover, protection, defense; escutcheon.

tamíng: Shield, buckler. (cf. kalásag; panamíng—to use a shield).

kalólot: To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo.

tagúb: Sheath, scabbard, case; to sheathe, put into a scabbard, provide or make a scabbard. Itagúb ang ímo espáda. Sheathe your sword. Tágbi (Tagubí) ang ímo binángon. Provide a scabbard for your bolo.

panílo: (Sp. pañuelo) Cloth, cloth-band, collar, neckcloth; the strip of cloth or leather used for fastening the sheath of a bolo to the hip. (cf. balióg; pányo)

20th September 2012, 07:05 AM	#2
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Saw this thread just now. Wow, nice one Michael! Skål! I have yet to figure out whether there's a special name for these 'bat'-pommeled Visayan swords. And I'm also still finding out whether parts of Luzon adjacent to the Visayas also used this sword (because some of these swords are not chisel-ground as we all know, like my example below). My only input is that the pattern of the cord binding on the hilt is similar to the carving on my similar sword. Thus it sure looks that Michael's example is the older one. And my example would then be a latter less ornate version, and in which hilt the style of the cord binding was mimicked. Very nice example indeed! PS - As for the interpretation of the carving on the scabbard, I'm preparing another thread (Southeast Asian sword symbolism), based on what I gathered in those European museums I've been to recently. Hope it'll shed some light on the matter. Thanks. Attached Images

19th September 2012, 07:36 PM	#1
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	I'd like to add one more thing here: That sword is AWESOME! That is all.

20th September 2012, 03:14 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Lorenz, Nice to see your sword and the similar pattern on the handle. I look forward to read your coming thread with some of the results from your study tour. Skål to you too Michael

21st September 2012, 05:16 AM	#4
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks too, Michael. And yes, will surely post that new thread very soon ... the only problem is, the A Very Old Kris thread is distracting me!

10th October 2012, 04:36 AM	#5
Bangkaya Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 38	Hello, This is an Akeanon talibung with a linamay type blade, not an Ilonggo tenegre. The type of bakunawa pommel with the shorter nose and longer "eye stems" and "ears" sets it apart from other Akeanon talibungs with the typical elongated nose or folded nose variety. Generally, these more "bat-like" features are found from the panday clans that more coastal such as in Makato, Ibajay, and Tangalan. The long nose or folded nose variety are more of a highland variety usually associated with the sword making traditions of Malinao, Libacao and Balete. It is interesting to not that the the original poster's talibung has a symmetrical round guard, whereas most of these "bat-like" bakunawa hilt talibungs (such as Spunger's) have asymmetrical guards more similar to the sanduko of Capiz. As for the beetle wing decoration, it is said that this particular beetle has certain anting-anting qualities. Yet it is also said that the number of beetle wings also marks the number of times the talibung has been used. Regards, Bangkaya

10th October 2012, 10:25 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Bangkaya, I am still happy if I can trace a sword to a specific island, like Panay, but obviously you know how to differ them between regions and village. When you find time it would be very interesting if you could, maybe on a separate thread, share your knowledge on which features that indicate which sub-region on the more usual Visayan swords? Michael

10th October 2012, 04:35 PM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks too, Bangkaya. And welcome to the forum! On a similar note, would any of the terms below pertain also to the swords under discussion? To err on the side of caution, I'm copying-and-pasting what I posted earlier in another thread. Thanks in advance and the info you've just provided above is truly appreciated. The terms are coming from a 1930's Ilonggo-English dictionary by Kaufmann: sandúkò: A kind of long bolo with a curved point. (cf. ginúnting). garanás: Knife, especially one used for cutting meshes, repairing nets, etc. (cf. urutúp, galanás, súndang, kotsílyo, lansítas). ginúnting: A kind of war-knife, large bolo. (cf. siántong, sandúkò, binángon, íwà). siántong: A kind of bolo, but straight and longer than the ordinary binángon and having the point slightly curved. (cf. sandúkò). súndang: Knife, kitchen-knife, a small stiff knife, dagger, sword, table-knife. (cf. tulóslok—fork; irós—spoon; garanás, urutóp, lansítas, kotsílyo, binángon, íwa, etc.). talibóng: A large, heavy bolo. (cf. sandúkò, siántong, binángon). urutúp: (B) A knife, anything with a sharp edge for cutting, as a piece of sharp stone, bone, tin, wood, bamboo, etc. (cf. súndang, garanás; ótop). túmbak: A harpoon, barbed spear or javelin, prong, fork. (cf.bángkaw—lance). bángkaw: A lance, spear. Ang kílid sang Aton Ginóo hinandusán sang bángkaw ni Longíno. The side of Our Lord was pierced by the lance of Longinus. kinabasî, kinabásì: Like—, in the form of—, a kabásì-fish; sharppointed. Bángkaw nga kinabasî. A lance with a straight, sharp point. (cf.kabásì, pinángdan). pinángdan: Like a—, in the form of a—, screw-pine; twisted like a screw-pine. Bángkaw nga pinángdan. A lance with a long drawn and twisted point. kinúgon: Made as pointed or as sharp as cogon-grass; the point of a spear,lance, arrow, etc. (cf. kógon). lántip: The double-edged point of a lance, spear, or the like. binángon: The Philippine long knife carried in a scabbard on the hip by workmen. The scabbard or case is called "tagúb" (cf. bólo, pinútì, siántong, sandúkò, ginúnting, talibóng, kális, súndang, uták). lansétas: (Sp. lanceta) Lancet, fleam, a farrier's sharp knife used in phlebotomy; a pocket-knife. pinútì: Knife, bolo, any cutting tool made of steel. (cf. putî). related terms: baláraw: Dagger, poniard, stiletto, knife. (cf. dága, punyál). dága: (Sp. daga) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, súndang, pinútì). kotsílyo: (Sp. cochillo) Knife, table-knife. (cf. súndang). punyál: (Sp. puñal) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, dága, súndang, etc.). íwà: Dagger; poniard, dirk, knife. (cf. dága, binángon, talibóng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kotsílyo, súndang, garanás, urutúp, lansétas). uták: Knife, bolo. See binángon. espáda: (Sp. espada) Sword, sabre, falchion, scimitar, brand, rapier, side-arm. (cf. binángon, talibúng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kális). kális: (Sp. cris) The Malayan dagger, creese or cris, a sword as used by the Moros. sáble: (Sp. sable) Sabre, sword. (cf. súndang, binángon, talibóng, etc.). kampílan: A large, long kind of sword; hanger, cutlass. lánsa: (Sp. lanza) Lance. (cf. bángkaw). bidyíw: A spear, harpoon. (cf. bángkaw—lance). sibát: A spear, a kind of barbed lance. Palayógi siá sang sibát. Throw the spear at him. Sibatá ang talunón. Throw a spear at the wild boar. Spear the wild boar. sumbilíng: (H) Any missile in the nature of a javelin, spear, lance or the like. orongán: The (wooden) shaft of a lance, spear, etc. (cf. unungán, ulungán). kalásag: Shield, cover, protection, defense; escutcheon. tamíng: Shield, buckler. (cf. kalásag; panamíng—to use a shield). kalólot: To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo. tagúb: Sheath, scabbard, case; to sheathe, put into a scabbard, provide or make a scabbard. Itagúb ang ímo espáda. Sheathe your sword. Tágbi (Tagubí) ang ímo binángon. Provide a scabbard for your bolo. panílo: (Sp. pañuelo) Cloth, cloth-band, collar, neckcloth; the strip of cloth or leather used for fastening the sheath of a bolo to the hip. (cf. balióg; pányo)