Moro Kris?

Kipinga50 · 13th July 2012, 04:41 PM

Hello all,
I just show you one Kris that I bought last week end, for your opinion, I do not know anything about weapons in Southeast Asia, my passion is weapons of Africa. The handle is of horn, the ferrule is silver, the Beca Beca are Brass, and the blade is inlaid with brass square. I await your comments.

Battara · 13th July 2012, 09:47 PM

It looks like a Moro kris from the Sulu region. The pommel is in a simple junggayan style and I suppose the brass squares are perhaps talismanic (brass warding off evil).

It is strange that the brass is in squares instead of the usual dots and the forte is not in the usual elephant figure but a little more simplified.

Nice piece though and thanks for sharing.

kai · 14th July 2012, 01:41 AM

I agree that quite a bit of craftmanship and effort went into making this piece.

However, it just doesn't vibes with me: neither as a traditional Moro piece nor as Malay work. Apart from the weird gandik area, the flow of lines of the blade is as strange as the inlay and the engraved motif at the end of the fullers; the hilt seems to copy a Sulu junggayan but both the pommel as well as the stepped grip area seems kinda off to me; peened over tang or just holding the pommel onto the grip (another unconventional approach)?

If I had to bet, I'd lay my 2 cents on it being a fairly recent reproduction, possibly by those busy Madurese artisans? Any signs of modern glue at the pommel/grip attachment or for setting the blade?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 14th July 2012, 01:53 AM

BTW, where did this sword come from?
(Not locally from Sao Vicente, I guess.)

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 14th July 2012, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I agree that quite a bit of craftmanship and effort went into making this piece.

However, it just doesn't vibes with me: neither as a traditional Moro piece nor as Malay work. Apart from the weird gandik area, the flow of lines of the blade is as strange as the inlay and the engraved motif at the end of the fullers; the hilt seems to copy a Sulu junggayan but both the pommel as well as the stepped grip area seems kinda off to me; peened over tang or just holding the pommel onto the grip (another unconventional approach)?

If I had to bet, I'd lay my 2 cents on it being a fairly recent reproduction, possibly by those busy Madurese artisans? Any signs of modern glue at the pommel/grip attachment or for setting the blade?

Regards,
Kai

Agree, there is something wrong here ...

I think it's maybe post 1950's
Kembang Kacang is all wrong, way too diminuitive .

Battara · 14th July 2012, 04:49 AM

Yes although I stand by what I said, there are more than those things I mentioned that are strange about this.

Kai you have a point - it may have been made recently - hadn't thought of that. Would make more sense.

Kipinga50 · 14th July 2012, 08:34 AM

Hi Kai,
It come from Nederland.

kai · 14th July 2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

It come from Nederland.

Could you try to inquire with the seller where he obtained it from?

Regards,
Kai

Maurice · 14th July 2012, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Could you try to inquire with the seller where he obtained it from?

Regards,
Kai

He didn't get it from me.... LOL

Kipinga50 · 14th July 2012, 11:14 PM

The seller in Rotterdam, told me that it was a Malay Kris, but I doubt he knows more than me.

kai · 14th July 2012, 11:23 PM

I meant wether it came from a Dutch collection (which?), some auction (where?), or directly from Indonesia/Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai

harimauhk · 27th July 2012, 11:10 AM

Could this be what the Malays call a sundang?

Battara · 27th July 2012, 05:47 PM

Yes, although there are some subtle differences between the Malay sundang and Moro krises.

ariel · 27th July 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes, although there are some subtle differences between the Malay sundang and Moro krises.

Such as?
Can you educate me (us)?

Battara · 28th July 2012, 02:43 AM

That would take a while Ariel. However to mention a few things:

1. there are differences in okir - Malay is more "realistic" than the more stylized forms used by Moro groups, even more than that of the Sulu region.

2. the pommel is often tilted at close to a 45 degree angle and smaller. Moro older forms may be smaller but are not as angled in general, and later ones are larger and again not as angled.

3. the hilt section between the blade and the pommel has a more sculpted shape, often without a ferrule to speak of. This section where a ferrule would be is also often much smaller than the rest of the hilt in circumference. In Moro forms the same region under the pommel is not as sculpted and there is a large ferrule - sometimes as large as half the hilt.

4. the clamps between the hilt and the blade on Malay pieces are very thin and plain, but Moro clamps are often wider, and can be plain or have Moro okir.

5. the scabbards of good Malay examples have very long band sections of Malay okir. Moro bands are not as long down the length but have thinner bands of plain or okir work.

These are just some of the things that come quickly to mind at the moment.

Lew · 3rd December 2012, 04:25 AM

Thread is closed on this piece.

13th July 2012, 04:41 PM	#1
Kipinga50 Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sao Vicente Posts: 28	Moro Kris? Hello all, I just show you one Kris that I bought last week end, for your opinion, I do not know anything about weapons in Southeast Asia, my passion is weapons of Africa. The handle is of horn, the ferrule is silver, the Beca Beca are Brass, and the blade is inlaid with brass square. I await your comments. Attached Images

3rd December 2012, 04:25 AM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Closing thread Thread is closed on this piece.

13th July 2012, 09:47 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	It looks like a Moro kris from the Sulu region. The pommel is in a simple junggayan style and I suppose the brass squares are perhaps talismanic (brass warding off evil). It is strange that the brass is in squares instead of the usual dots and the forte is not in the usual elephant figure but a little more simplified. Nice piece though and thanks for sharing.

14th July 2012, 01:41 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I agree that quite a bit of craftmanship and effort went into making this piece. However, it just doesn't vibes with me: neither as a traditional Moro piece nor as Malay work. Apart from the weird gandik area, the flow of lines of the blade is as strange as the inlay and the engraved motif at the end of the fullers; the hilt seems to copy a Sulu junggayan but both the pommel as well as the stepped grip area seems kinda off to me; peened over tang or just holding the pommel onto the grip (another unconventional approach)? If I had to bet, I'd lay my 2 cents on it being a fairly recent reproduction, possibly by those busy Madurese artisans? Any signs of modern glue at the pommel/grip attachment or for setting the blade? Regards, Kai

14th July 2012, 01:53 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	BTW, where did this sword come from? (Not locally from Sao Vicente, I guess.) Regards, Kai

14th July 2012, 04:49 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Yes although I stand by what I said, there are more than those things I mentioned that are strange about this. Kai you have a point - it may have been made recently - hadn't thought of that. Would make more sense.

14th July 2012, 08:34 AM	#7
Kipinga50 Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sao Vicente Posts: 28	Hi Kai, It come from Nederland.

14th July 2012, 11:14 PM	#10
Kipinga50 Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sao Vicente Posts: 28	The seller in Rotterdam, told me that it was a Malay Kris, but I doubt he knows more than me.

14th July 2012, 11:23 PM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I meant wether it came from a Dutch collection (which?), some auction (where?), or directly from Indonesia/Malaysia. Regards, Kai

27th July 2012, 11:10 AM	#12
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	Could this be what the Malays call a sundang?

27th July 2012, 05:47 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Yes, although there are some subtle differences between the Malay sundang and Moro krises.

28th July 2012, 02:43 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	That would take a while Ariel. However to mention a few things: 1. there are differences in okir - Malay is more "realistic" than the more stylized forms used by Moro groups, even more than that of the Sulu region. 2. the pommel is often tilted at close to a 45 degree angle and smaller. Moro older forms may be smaller but are not as angled in general, and later ones are larger and again not as angled. 3. the hilt section between the blade and the pommel has a more sculpted shape, often without a ferrule to speak of. This section where a ferrule would be is also often much smaller than the rest of the hilt in circumference. In Moro forms the same region under the pommel is not as sculpted and there is a large ferrule - sometimes as large as half the hilt. 4. the clamps between the hilt and the blade on Malay pieces are very thin and plain, but Moro clamps are often wider, and can be plain or have Moro okir. 5. the scabbards of good Malay examples have very long band sections of Malay okir. Moro bands are not as long down the length but have thinner bands of plain or okir work. These are just some of the things that come quickly to mind at the moment.