Javanese machete??

[Billman]

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

The variation in names of things from place to place in Java is very confusing sometimes, this was precisely what I was trying to clarify with my questions to Kiai Carita. Kiai Carita took the correct approach when he said "in my village it is called such and such". In another village twenty kilometers down the road it might be called something else entirely, which to me means that if we want to give names to things we need to qualify the name by saying:- in this place, at this time, this article is known as a whatever.

This does not only happen in Asia - even in countries such as France a few miles difference can mean a different spelling, a different pronunciation or even a completely different name...

The dictionary name for a billhook in French is a serpe (diminutive a serpette, or little serpe) - but also gouet, goyarde, poudo, pudet, podadora...

For more complete list, see my web site: http://www.billhooks.co.uk/France%201.htm

In the UK it can be a billhook; a bill, a handbill, a hedging bill, a chopper, a hacker, a brushing hook, a hook, a broom hook, a block hook, a spar hook, a pruning hook - see: http://www.billhooks.co.uk/Page%201.htm

and the shape can vary considerably from country to country....

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Billman,

I would refer to your first six pictures as: Koedjang variants (while their shapes may appear to vary widely, they share the same philisophy in their construction).
BTW ..... I think it would be a mistake for anyone to think that koedjangs are/were only talismanic.
My avatar is a picture of my personal koedjang. It is 43 cm long and fully functional.

Best,

[Henk]

Very interesting, apparantly my example does originate from Indonesia. Probably the tool was used for pruning or harversting verbs in the first place and a weapon if necesarry?

Can we compare a koedjang or billhook or whatever the name is of this tool with the sickle used by druids?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Henk,

Originally Posted by Henk

Very interesting, apparantly my example does originate from Indonesia. Probably the tool was used for pruning or harversting verbs in the first place and a weapon if necesarry?

Can we compare a koedjang or billhook or whatever the name is of this tool with the sickle used by druids?

- Both tools have an agricultural origin.
- The difference:
The druid sickle, from what I recall, is constructed merely in a sickle shape whereas the koedi/koedjang/tjongkrang is constructed to be more of a utility tool.

mvg,

[Billman]

Originally Posted by Henk

Can we compare a koedjang or billhook or whatever the name is of this tool with the sickle used by druids?

If the Druids used any tool at all, other than in the comic books of Asterix, it would have been a pruning hook of the billhook/sickle type... It is sometimes difficult to classify a tool as a light billhook and a heavy sickle overlap their functions... In France there exist 'faucilles à bois' - wood sickles, i.e. sickle shaped billhooks...

It is more likely that as mistletoe is a parasitsic growth, often found on fruit trees, it would have been cut witha tool specific to the task - known as a 'coupe gui' in France, and mounted on a long handle, many also have two blades - that cut on the up stroke (push) and the down stroke (pull) - like the billhook there are many regional variations in blade shape...

All these tools have been around since the late Iron Age, and existed in England before the Roman invasions c 50 AD...

[Billman]

The origins of the Golden Sickle probably lie in the bronze bladed sickles that preceded those made of iron, as in this reconstruction (from Germany) the bronze blade is golden when polished - note the caulked billhook type of handle, common in northern Europe and Britain:

[fearn]

Originally Posted by Billman

The origins of the Golden Sickle probably lie in the bronze bladed sickles that preceded those made of iron, as in this reconstruction (from Germany) the bronze blade is golden when polished - note the caulked billhook type of handle, common in northern Europe and Britain:

That's one possibility, but you do know that they could tell the difference between bronze and gold, right?

There's a couple of things here. One is that the golden sickle is a Roman story, and we don't know if it was real. That said, a modern-day druid actually did try to cut mistletoe with a golden sickle (9 carat sheet gold--he was a jeweler), and yes, the gold sickle did cut the mistletoe. It cut about two stems before it broke. Mistletoe wood is pretty brittle. So it could have been done.

Additionally, we have to look at the symbolism:
gold=metal of the sun
sickle=crescent of the moon
...and the ritual took place on the summer solstice, the time of maximum sunlight.
Mistletoe is sacred because
--it grows in the "air," not in the ground,
--it tends to be green when the tree it's on has shed its leaves (a symbol of eternal life and/or the spirit?)
--the berries look like semen (white and sticky)
--the fruiting stem looks like a phallus, especially since the two berries at the base of the straight, rigid stem are typically the last two to fall off
(Yes, this is why you kiss under the mistletoe at Christmas. It's a fertility rite).
And finally, most English mistletoe grows on apple, not on oak, and mistle-oaks are quite rare. And yes, oak was sacred to the druids.
--As I recall, the mistletoe was caught on a bull hide, too, and bulls were one of the major sources of wealth in the ancient world (if you know the origin of "capitalism," you know what I'm talking about).

Add up all the symbols, the sun-moon of the golden sickle cutting a supernatural/fertility symbol/toxic plant on the day of maximum sunlight from a sacred tree, and it's caught on the skin of a slaughtered, valuable animal...

I don't know if the ritual ever happened, or whether they used a gold sickle or a gold plated sickle, or whatever. The things we do know are that it could have happened as stated, and regardless, there's a lot of symbolism hidden in that story.

Best,

F

[Billman]

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_..._and_mistletoe you really need to go back to Pliny's original latin text and see what he actually wrote ref the 'golden sickle' and how else it could be translated.....

"But he was a Roman, and scholars have always treated Roman descriptions of the world with caution" see: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...536402,00.html

[Billman]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Billman, I would refer to your first six pictures as: Koedjang variants (while their shapes may appear to vary widely, they share the same philisophy in their construction). Best,

I would agree - all appear to have two elements, a curved sickle type blade and an axe type - the difference between these and European double bladed billhooks, is that the axe part is on the front of the blade, next to the hooked part, rather than on the back... But even on European billhooks, the position and shape of the back blade varies considerably from country to country, or even within a single country or region 5the following are from Spain - Lleida, Teruel, Castilla and Girona: